Off Topic Politics Thread

Sounds like Turkey is coming to the boil. Dangerous times.....

 

I'm not sure that's the fact you're portraying it as. It may be true but we don't know for sure. A quick google search reveals articles ranging from those claiming the shooter was gay, had been "used" by men he met in that club and had vowed revenge to articles saying the FBI have found no evidence the attacker was gay or that he targeted that club because it's a gay club.

At this point I don't think we know for sure why he did what he did.

 

As I wrote before, his parents were quoted as saying that he was "outraged" at seeing two men kissing in Miami. Seems like a motivation to me.

 

It does seem like a motivation but it doesn't prove anything. He also claimed allegiance to ISIS when calling 911, regulars at the nightclub have said he'd been there a number of times and had a temper, the autopsy on his body seems to suggest he was a long-term steroid user, his ex-wife claims he used to beat her and a man who claims to have had a sexual relationship with him said he had been "used" by latino men he met at Pulse nightclub and had said he would "make them pay". So there are quite a few other possible motivations floating around.

 

Exactly and the ex wife of the Nice murderer said he was not religious. "we" need to stop feeling the need to claim attrocities. It is ridiculous. These are crimes against everybody and do not need this constant "we are the victim" stance from different minorities. It is just a childish stance of ownership. These are crimes against humanity end of.

 

If we don't know his motivation, how do we know where his hatred is directed? What if those gays were seen as a symbol/symptom of a decadent, infidel society? The hatred then is primarily directed at the West; the gay party goers are merely the target selected to make a point.

 

I feel like maybe if you could figure out the killer's motive and see if he was targeting gays and if he had friends who felt the same, then maybe you could send an extra cop or two out to the gay nightclubs, or put some signs out to the gay community like "Be on the lookout." Maybe save a hundred lives or so. Wouldn't cost that much, but then again, it's just gay lives though, so you know, no need to knock yourself out, they aren't more special than anyone else.

Or you know what.... who cares about the target? It could have been anyone. The one thing we do know it's Muslims so just round them all up and throw them in a concentration camp somewhere.

 

Yes, it could have been anyone.Yesterday holidaymakers, last year death metal fans (is that a hate crime against headbangers?), recently white, (specifically British) tourists in Tunisia ...racist, hate crime...or terrorist outrage?

 

You are generalising what we are saying. We aren't saying that LGBT communities are not a target to anyone. As minority they obviously are and it shouldn't be so. We are merely asking why people seem so intent on claiming a label It was against us, it was because of what we are.

Who are "we" is the question. Was this an attack on LGBT? or was that a conveniant avenue for a more general hatred of "western ideology" or was it against humankind as a whole? Who cares about the label?

Similarly you are then labelling muslims as a target for people who you aren't agreeing with even though you know yourself that we are not saying that.

Again you are looking for reasons to find something to be offended about rather than actually being offended.

 

Theoretically perhaps, it could have been anyone. But in each case, it wasn't. Maybe there's something linking some of the attacks we don't yet know about. Or not. We'll never know if we just treat every attack the same. "Ehh... Muslims... what can you do?"

It must be very frustrating to be black or LGBT and find the goal posts are getting moved constantly.

"Look, lots of people don't like us! Can we get some protection, please?"
"Nonsense. The cops aren't killing blacks, gays aren't targets of hate crimes."
Incident happens.
"Now do you believe us? You just saw it."
"Oh that? Naw, that stuff happens to everyone"
"But you just said it didn't happen!"
"Well I mean, it doesn't actually happen to everyone. It just COULD happen to anyone. So sorry, don't see why you're special."

The man with the burning house wants the hose directed at his house because his house is BURNING. That's what makes him "special." Not that he's a particular house or race, but because his house is the one on fire.

 

I dunno. It could be any one of those reasons. It could even be all of those reasons. Let's find out.

I wonder who the "we" in question is myself. A few days ago, you were complaining about immigrants and wanting to pull out of the EU. Now we're all one big human family.

 

I never said I didn't look after my home first. I just don't go into it with any delusion of making it anything otherwise. I look after home first. What is wrong with that? Nothing hidden there. Does not make me any less humanitarian. If anything it proves I am human.

No1 = my family
No2= my community
No3= My country
No 4 = my world

I do not feel the need to claim otherwise.

 

Sure you do. Every time you insist that "All Lives Matter" and that all humanity is equal. Which you have been doing quite a lot.

 

All lives do matter.

looking after No1 does not mean that you do not think all lives matter. The 2 are not incompatible.

 

I'm guessing that's what a lot of gays and blacks are thinking.

 

I have to differ with you there again, sorry mate. What it proves is that you're a product of nature. It is your evolved human side which allows you to temporarily put aside home, community, country and world and try to understand and help an individual or individuals who you have no connection with and who are unable to help themselves. When you put aside the what's in it for me element, when you help others, that's the point where you are at your most human.

 

I give up. This whole thread at the minute seems to be some strange leftist idealogical brainwarp that wants to tell me that I am inhumane and not decent for not following a narrow viewpoint that somehow the whole world is supposed to adhere to or be considered indecent.

You are challenging my right to consider myself as normal and decent because I do not share this whole "lovely world" concept and at this moment in time I can't handle that. For tonight I will leave it there.

 

I disagree completely. I believe that people are at their most human when all they do is look after their own self interests and perhaps those of their family and close ones. When it comes to the crunch, this is what people care about, not strangers. Self preservation is the most basic of human instincts.

 

We are at our most powerful when we love each other indiscriminately. When, for example, we offer little acts of kindness to strangers. Heard the one about the good Samaritan? That's humanity at it's best.

 

I wasn't trying to make a moral judgment.

I was just trying to point out I think it is logically inconsistent to acknowledge that you care more about yourself and certain individuals and there's nothing wrong with that, while at the same time getting mad over a perception that Black Lives Matter might care more about black lives than "all lives" or that an LGBT person might want to emphasis the LGBT aspect of a violent act.

I mean, if you're black then obviously you are a black life and so are your family. If you are gay, you probably want to feel safe going out to a nightclub for a good time with your friends. It's your community.