Who do you punish ? UEFA are to take disciplinary proceedings against the Russian FA for the violence of 'a few' Russian fans inside the ground at the match v England. UEFA state that no action is to be taken against the English FA for any violent behaviour of 'a few' English fans outside the ground ......because ..... that area is not in their remit. I'm struggling to see the difference - especially as I thought that security inside the stadium would have been the responsibility of the French police. Maybe the French football team needs to be disqualified ! I don't condone any violence (inside or outside the ground). --- But - I fail to see how it is right to even consider throwing out a football team ( Russia, England or other ), for the sins of a tiny fraction of their 'supporters / hooligans. All that is doing is punishing the players. Perhaps the English FA will follow Uefa's lead - and throw Gillingham out of L1 for the crowd trouble v Millwall ( somebody please tell me that it's not the same situation).
I think that the reason why they are saying that violence inside the ground is the responsibility of the country concerned is that they obviously had tickets which were obtained via the Russian FA. Violence outside the ground is more difficult to deal with in this way, with so many hangers on travelling just for trouble, or some kind of show done with other so called ultras. Some countries (and clubs) have done more to combat hooliganism, racism etc. than others, so that I think that if a club has a record of violence going back over several decades they should be, in some way, held responsible for it. Is eg. the old firm violence in Scotland not, in some way, a result of the 'politics' of the clubs themselves ? The Russian fans are amongst the most violent and most racist in Europe - is it safe to send the next World Cup there ?
As much has it saddens me, the English past reputation has come back to haunt it. The Russian Ultras are a bunch of nuts and I think we are only just grasping how mental they are, we talk about clubs like Millwall but these Russian guys will not be beckoning or chanting you down, they will simple find you and take you out with the most grotesque of violence. The best thing the English out there can do is leave the alcohol alone, keep their gobs shut and take their flags down, no place in football for it I agree but you have a choice if you want to get home safely, because the French police are not going to protect you.
So- whist I have no problem in punishment to the thugs ( from whichever country ) - is it fair to expel the team just because of the stupidity of a tiny fraction of their support. - doesn't seem fair to the players A perverse way of looking at things is that if the players can't behave themselves on the pitch, should the fans be kicked out of the ground ?
After seeing all the footage I find it hard to believe that England fans (a few aside) could be held responsible for this. If somebody starts landing punches and bottle, tables ETC you dont just stand there and take a pasting do you!! The first altercation was started by the local French yobs and as i saw on TV as soon as the French old bill turned up they did a runner and left the English fans to take the blame and i think that was done on purpose, as with the Russian's pre, post and during the game. Good to see though that UEFA would be harsh to send a message to fans by kicking teams out, injustice if we were thrown out though. Why do i fear for the Wales game, they would not wind up the English fans hoping for more bad press to so that we got kicked out would they??????? at least Russia play the day before, i dare themselves to get kicked out i really do http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/36526723 actually just seen
I can't see the Welsh trying to wind up the English for this purpose. As for the Russian ultras, they are not interested in whether their team gets thrown out or not because their only aim in France is to prove themselves as the best hooligans - we can only hope that they go out as soon as possible (or have to play Poland !).
Just to really make things interesting and exciting on Thursday, there's a drinking ban in Lens for the game so most England fans will have to drink in nearby Lille where most of the bars, restaurants and accommodation is. And guess who's playing in Lille on the same day? Yep, Russia.
So far, there has been very little defence of the behaviour of English 'fans' ( apart from James, the Gills man ). Without prejudice, I will accept that some English 'supporters' were provoked sufficiently by Russian 'hooligans', to then behave in a criminal enough way that meant that six of them ( that got caught), had to be jailed. I must presume that it wasn't just for farting in public ! -- and yet the English media continue to describe all Russian fans as 'hooligans', whilst stating that the English are merely 'supporters.' !!! Isn't it a coincidence that, it always seems that it is only English 'supporters' that are provoked ? - and yet, I haven't heard of any trouble inside the grounds at any of the other games in this tournament. I can have genuine sympathy for innocent 'victims' caught up in the violence. I'm sure that, I too would defend myself in such circumstances - and maybe that it is another coincidence that, the six English 'non angles' ( as described by the Russian sports minister ), were only defending themselves - although. I suspect, ( again - without prejudice ), that this defending probably turned into some sort of 'siege mentality'. ------------- There is 'provocation', and there is 'overreaction.' A significant minority of English ( and British ) people have a reputation of going around Europe (in particular), as if Britannia still rules the waves ! Such attitude and associated behaviour, has done nothing to endear Britain to the rest of Europe -- and the moronic minority of thugs from other countries will always take the opportunity to attack English fans when they do not have home advantage. This is not a coincidence - but a sad fact. It is right to condemn ALL thugs - but let's not delude ourselves - some of the thugs were / are English -- but not ALL Russian fans were / are thugs.
Most English hooligans are banned from travelling, the Russian Ultras went to EURO2016 with one intention and one intention only, battering the English. Trouble is it was mostly innocent English they were battering randomly. I accept our reputation does us no favours, but this time in the main we were not to blame. The media initially wanted to post up pictures that put us in a bad light, however, once video evidence and reports came out of the area, the media agenda started to fall apart. And how did the French police deal with it, by dropping in tear gas cannisters on the English - most the running and chaos you see was caused by the police creating panic.
You will be happy to know then that there was a fair amount of trouble between the Northern Ireland fans and the Polish fans before the match. It didn't make it into the stadium but I've seen a video of a small side streets with cafe's being demolished by both NI & Polish fans going for each other
The Gills PegLeg -- I'm not sure what you've done in post No.10 If you have edited my post - it doesn't show up on my screen. brb - I have done as much as I can do to accept that, (in the main), trouble was initiated by the Russian 'fans.' However, I cannot help myself to mention what must have been at least an 'overreaction' in the tactics employed by the English supporters in their 'self-defence.' I wasn't ' 'there,' and neither, I suspect, were any of our members. I can only go on the evidence that is available - and, [ at least a small ] part of that evidence, was the behaviour of a small number of English fans ( the ones that got arrested and jailed ). ............ anyway - whilst the facts can be distorted to suit individual persuasion - let's just accept that the English were 'totally' innocent, and those who were arrested suffered the most extreme provocation - BUT - Why do these incidents always ( and fairly exclusively ), involve English football 'fans ?' -- I have given a 'political' viewpoint in my post ( No.8 ) - and of which you have made recognition. This is an attitude that transcends merely football - and is prevalent in many other social areas - and which is nothing short of a lack of respect for other nations, their people and culture. As I said earlier - people think Queen Victoria is still on the throne - or that we're still engaged in WW 2.(singing associated songs.) This attitude has no place in modern society - but ( and, again ), why does it seem to rear it's ugly head primarily when English football 'fans' are to be found. I don't condone the violence by the Russian 'thugs' - but (perversely), I can understand the 'reason' --- maybe they' were retaliating to the provocation they have historically suffered ! ( but two wrongs don't make one right - they just make two wrongs )..... oh well - I can't wait for the Millwall game next season -should I expect that there will be tear gas thrown into the Rainham end when it all kicks off ? ) ( I did say 'when - not if ). edit - I am struggling to resist the temptation to mention the wonderful organisation of the 'authorities' -- you know who I mean - those responsible for ticket allocation, segregation in the grounds - public order supervision in the streets etc etc - I think our GFC ticket office staff, stewards and Kent Police must be moonlighting in France for the next few weeks.
I think history is our worst enemy, local yobs and the Russian ultra made a point of targeting English fans. Whilst you can argue about the appropriate level of self defence, there is no argument that anyone looking for trouble will search out the English fan and hope for a reaction. My bigger concern was how the Russians set of a flair inside the ground, with the trouble outside the ground, heightened security over terrorist threats, how, how, how, did anyone get a flair past security.
TheGillsPegLeg Thank you for the edit ! You're wrong - I am not happy to hear of violence anywhere in the world. I hear that there's been trouble in the streets of Lille today - where the English are doing their drinking. ... so, together with your information in your edited post, it does nothing to dispel the theory that much of the 'nonsense'of football fans in these types of events always seem to involve English / British ' fans/angels.'
I nearly laughed ! ( only because the French authorities didn't know the answer to the conundrum below ) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36543468 In the report it states that the French authorities didn't know why the violence had escalated !! I would have thought that was easy : (some) English football fans + alcohol = Richard (more embarrassment)
Depends on what angle you view it from, I saw a video from the supporters angle that clearly showed apart from singing they were doing no wrong and also mingling with the French, very little alcohol sighted. However, the police took a dislike to this and decided to descend on them getting the reaction they did. Videos clearly show police spraying supporters directly in the face with tear gas, however, the media (SKY & BBC) choose to film from behind the authorities and show an angle that shows a negative viewpoint for our supporters. Also the earlier chases were due to a few Russian supporters once again attempting to attack English supporters. Please be careful what you read in the media and try to search out more independent reports from both angles. If you charge a group of people in the manner the French do and spray tear gas, that in itself will cause absolute chaos and panic, have they never heard of containment of a situation. Now let's not forget the flare, I cannot remember the French police charging into the Russian section when they let off a flare gun in a packed stadium, now you tell me which of the two situations was more dangerous with women and children clearly near-by in the ground.
brb I entirely understand what you're saying - however - you mention that one angle of the scenes, did nothing to show the 'innocence' of English fans - so o if that angle shows English fans being thugs - then it's no good burying head in sand. I have stated that - for sake of argument- the English fans are totally innocent ( I don't actually believe this ). So why would a French Policeman want to spray tear gas all over their faces ? ............... This is where I will accept ( without prejudice ), that the French Police have used sledgehammer tactics against the English. The English know that the French 'hate' the English - so if you give a gendarme the merest reason to go over the top - they will. And I suspect that any protest of over zealous action from the French Police, was met with the full artillery at their disposal. We touched on the 'attribute' of the stewarding and policing in France - but I suspect the French have gone in heavy handed because of our 'history.' It might be a little ironic that the thread is now discussing the merits of stewards and police. There is a certain amount of 'conflict' in what people expect the French police to do ( or not as is the case ), and the action / inaction by the police and stewards at the Millwall game. But we are England - we want it all our own way - wherever we are in the world.
Sorry but your argument now falls apart. How is policing based on previous history, and what previous history would that be to do with France in current times, because in general since the 70's & 80's football has much improved (excluding the Wall game) - many a time you hear supporters saying they would not want to go back to them days. Our own police have offered to help but no the French want to go in heavy handed with riot shields, helmets and tear gas, pushing any passing citizen out of the way, regardless of who they are and their nationality. What did you actually see in that video to call them thugs and accuse people of burying their heads in the sand? France chose to host the competition and had 4 bloody years to prepare for it, with it comes singing, banter, flag waving, alcohol and yes, the odd social disorder. Oh blimey they lit flare in an open space, let's go give the hooligans a good kicking, well they must be hooligans if they are doing all the fore mentioned and SKY & BBC choose to report it from a certain angle much as the Daily Malice! Yes, I'm not saying our supporters are perfect because they are not, but let's not forget, most of our trouble makers have been banned from travelling i huge numbers. But hey let's lob in the odd tear gas because that's how we contain a situation, while every innocent person chokes on the smell. Oh what the heck why didn't we chuck tear gas in the Rainham End when Wall fans were in there, why didn't we chuck in tear gas when the Russians let off a flare in the stadium, into where women and children were sitting. The running and disorder in the main has been caused by the authorities causing wide spread panic and mayhem. Let's chuck a flare into a bar where the English are drinking while the police sit back and do nothing, then gas the English fans that try to escape the area. Even Stan Collymore who i have no time for, even had to stop the police attention by pretending to be a journo, was he singing, no, was he waving a flag, no, was he lighting a flare, no, had he been drinking, I saw no evidence of it, but whatever it's ok to harrass you because you are English and in their country. We are rude and we are arrogant but do we deserve to be treated by draconian methods by heavily suited warriors, no. I always said the day Steve Evans got one of our not606 members arrested, I said back then, it will not be long before you cannot even have banter....that day has come, but suppose I'm just burying my head in the sand!
brb Take it easy ! Perhaps I should have introduced politics into this thread earlier - because, undoubtedly, the reaction by the French Police suggests that they have discriminated against English fans ---and I say that this discrimination has deep roots - from a nation who ( for whatever reasons), seem to dislike the English. The French police may point to a tiny number of English fans who caused trouble - to justify their disproportionate action. - but - as shown by media who are not your favourite - there were English fans causing problems - again......... and maybe they have been provoked - or - indeed victimised by Russian lunatics --- and, yet again, reasons for this might have deep political and historical roots - which won't go away --- it bit like the behaviour of a tiny number of Gills fans when they play Millwall or Swindon ( even after over 20 years ). There is no common sense in the attitude of these people. Thuggish behaviour does extend to venting your frustration on the local population [for being attacked by Russians - with very little protection from the French Police].- There have been so many things that are wrong in what has happened in the last few days in France -- They do include the way that the French have handled the problems( I totally agree with you on this point ) - AND the way that they have been reported by the media ( Sky, Daily Mail etc ) - for their own political agenda --- but there would be very little to argue about if there weren't some English 'fans' who hadn't enhanced England's reputation in the world - as a nation with thugs for fans = regardless of who started the fight or threw the most punches.
Yes, agree, sorry for bursting a blood vessel but the authorities and media do rile me. There was a video i also saw of English supporters running amok through the street, so agree we are no angels, however, before that event Russian Ultras once again had gone to pick them off, yet this time the tables got turned. But there was a big difference in what the English did to what the Russians did, in that the English caught the culprits and let them go without harm, unlike the Russians who turn 10 on 1 to maim. But both our view points are valid I accept that
