Off Topic European Debate Thread

You mean like via apprenticeships which labour ripped to shreds and only started to recover in 2010 which has caused an issue with there being no trainers to train these new people.

 

One of the reasons a section of Tories are pro Europe is because cheap foreign labour will always be used to undercut our own workforce. Protectionism of British jobs for British workers cannot exist.

And with TTIP, doesn't it suggest that if we are in the EU then we are in a better position for trading globally? No. The UK - US would be able to negotiate their own trade deals. Britain already trades globally, and globally with some pretty unpleasant Countries - Capital knows no boundary or morality.

 

This debate transcends political 'norm' - there are plenty of labour MPs that want out - and plenty of Tories that want in.
Lib Dems all want in
UKIP wants out - which resonates with the traditional Labour supporters as well as the far right.
Here in Swindon, the people I mix with are a very mixed bunch - with mixed political persuasions - but nearly all are voting out.

 

Those blaming immigration on our struggling NHS.... take a look at this chart:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....sources/cht1populationchange_tcm77-368322.png

Now that is a steady increase in population, though admittedly annual change has gone up somewhat. Either way, it's a relatively constant trend. Now, if the population has always gone up like this, then why are we suddenly struggling? This suggests surely that it's not immigration, and that it is more likely to be lack of funding/efficiency?

I'd also disagree that the youth of today are not as intelligent. In fact, I'd argue that the invention of the Internet, which is the ultimate resource for research, has meant that all of the kids these days are more intelligent, though perhaps in different ways. People educated in the 60s/70s may well be more intelligent in curricular subjects but are also far more unlikely to have had as wide a range of factual knowledge at their disposal.

 

BRAIN says REMAIN
HEART says DEPART

....so still undecided...........

 

On a serious note for every 20 people i question only 2 want to stay in.
I hope it is the same across the country,i feel for our safety,our kids,there kids.
I pray to god we get out of the hell hole we are in.

 

I can tell you from many working in the nhs that the imigration,free loaders from europe are causing a meltdown in the nhs.

 

RR. Forgive me, I don't mean to be rude mate, but that's hardly convincing. My own Mum works in the NHS so I hear the stories and the causes as to problems. Once again, you've pretty much ignored my point and barely answered it. This is a debate thread, and when people provide you with stats or ask genuine queries, the fact you've can explain one mans' experience doesn't hold up. In fairness I'm also asking questions as devils advocate as I'm unsure myself.

I'd love to know why you see our place as a hell hole as well. What's so wrong with it?
NHS? No doubt it's struggling, and I 100% agree it needs major work, but fact is it's still the best in the world.
Terrorism? Well less Brits are dying from terrorism year on year than they were in the 80s and 90s, and our roads kill 50 odd people per week but you don't see anyone panicking about that.

In all honesty the only things that **** me off on a day to day basis are our crappy traffic and the ridiculousness of attempting to buy a house. Our politicians are all completely fecking useless but in terms of our actual day to day lives the UK ain't too bad in all honesty.

 

There is increased demand on the NHS. People live longer, the longer people live and the better they are treated the more people cost. It is not unusual for people to be now living with comorbidities where one individuals care can cost thousands of pounds a week.

 

At my sixth form it is the other way around opinion wise. Early polls suggest Scotland and Wales are more remain whilst england is on the half way mark. Can garuntee that if we leave then Scotland will have another referendum and leave the union

 

Rob the uk is a great country,hence why these people are trying to get here and suck the blood out of it.
If god forbid we stayed in this country will be unreconisable in ten years.
The turks,the africans,the eastern europeans will be here in monster proportions,believe me you will not like it.
I bet you will not be saying the above then.
This is our one chance to get our country back,governed by the people we vote in,not a faceless mob,looking after their own back pockets.

 

Lets them go believe me they will come crawling back into the union.

 

I refuse to believe polls the only true representation is the end result a lot of people are undecided and will decide on the day. If the SNP try to get another referendum then they don't respect the decision of the majority in Scotland.

 

I'm still undecided, but on immigration;
Apparently 300000+ people came into the uk last year (various news sources). Now, people who argue that we need immigration for our welfare (doctors, nurses etc - ignoring for now their dubious qualifications) - that's a town twice the size of Swindon every year. If every single immigrant was a professional, they still need housing, schools, hospitals, policing, sewerage, refuse collection, utilities - all the infrastructure that 300000 people need to live.
I think that's more than we can provide.

 

If mass migration is a necessity for the economy. What is the ceiling? Another million migrants, five, ten? How is the uncontrollable controlled?

This is a sovereign state, but we as a Country have no say in 3- 400,000 ( it is a rising figure) immigrants entering the UK annually. Those numbers can increase. There is no control.

At present rates the UK’s population will increase to EIGHTY MILLION by 2060.

Most of the migration is not high skilled. Many immigrants come to the UK because they are cheap labour, cheaper than those who were born here, they are in the UK because they are being used to drive costs and wages down, Some should think more about what this EU free market is and how it will not benefit aspects of society.

 

You have contradicted yourself here a bit Enoch, first you said it's a "I pray to god we get out of the hell hole we are in" now you're saying "the UK is a great country"
Which is it, I'm undecided and now I'm even more confused

 

23 UK born workers are displaced for every 100 migrants that come to work here. cheaper to employ!

How do I know this is true? I have friends that do it with no shame whatsoever and then sub them out at extortionate rates.

 

You're saying so much but with nothing to back it up! How are they sucking the blood out of it? In what way will it be unrecognisable? How will the Africans and Eastern Europeans be here in monstrous proportions? Get our country back from what ffs?

When you say 'suck the blood out of it', I assume you read too much Daily Mail and are on about the benefits. Now I'm not denying that that does happen, but it's dominance is minuscule in comparison to the other issues we have. You take a look at any independent study and almost all of them will say that immigrants contribute the same or more than they take, in total, to the country financially, directly. There will be foreign benefit cheats of course, but in the grand scheme of things, we're talking money which is a pittance.

The problem I see, isn't that, but it's the cost that the country sees, indirectly. So nothing to do with benefits cheats or anything like that, but the cost of improving infrastructure to satisfy the increased population. That's what I think there is an issue with and I agree that the numbers will be too high before long.

The monster proportions bit is nonsense mate. I agree on the Turks, and they should be nowhere near the EU in my opinion, but Africans and Eastern Europeans? Africans have been coming here for years, what's suddenly going to drive numbers up? And Eastern Europeans have had the free opportunity to come here for years, again, why will there be a sudden spike?

Agreed on the final point about a faceless mob. But me, I'd rather stay in and reform to become democratic than risk everything and leave, at the moment anyways, though I'm still open to convincing.

 

You and i are not going to agree,clearly you are in, and i am out.
Stay in my friend and expect to be dictated to on a bigger scale in your lifetime by the unelected.
You say the Turks but they are going to be part of the eu get used to it,and yes they will be here in their droves,why because we are a soft touch and every man,woman,kid that wants to get here knows that.