Off Topic The Politics Thread

What we are seeing is the real Boris Johnson, with no party minders or message gurus to give him the script to which he can add 'charm' and Latin. Hopefully enough of the electorate, and Tory MPs and party members, no matter what their views on the EU, have seen enough not to trust him with any serious job.

 

There you go and there within lies the fundenmental problem some how the UK has become devoid of any politicians. It all very well wanting to exit but can anyone on here build a decent government from our current lot?
I would suggest it doesn't matter as they are only puppets to big business anyhow. If anyone accepts that great but the second problem is the UK people themselves most on average don't even know their neighbours
Too busy shopping

 

**** off with your constant anti British ****.
If you were continuously rubbishing any other race there would be uproar on here!

 

Truly shameful opportunism from Gove and Grayling saying that they would pay junior doctors out of the Brexit 'dividend'. So they have never backed the Government policy and (in their terms) are willing to cave in to unions? But they have forgotten to mention this, either in cabinet or in public, until now? Would they give pay rises to other public sector workers or is this a special one off offer?

The government has ****ed up this negotiation with the BMA (who haven't helped) and I would be happy for Junior Doctors to be paid a bit more to work on Staurdays (as long as nurses, other hospital staff, police, firemen etc are as well), but if they don't support Government policy on this isn't it time for them to stop drawing their ministerial salaries and resign?

 

If that had been the case, there would have been no problem. As there clearly was a problem, that could not have been the case...

 

I'm spending a bit of time at hospital as an outpatient at the moment, and getting to know the people in my team as people rather than just their professional roles. No-one I've spoken to believes Hunt has the best interests of the NHS or their patients in mind. They all (from consultants downwards) are behind the "junior" doctors (what a demeaning adjective in this context). They all believe the proposals will not achieve the goals that Hunt says they are intended to achieve, and can convincingly explain what the gaps are, but believe he either doesn't understand or that he does, but doesn't want to acknowledge that because it doesn't suit his purpose. There is a total breakdown of trust. If this was a football team, the manager would be fired by the board.

The nurses believe they will be next if this goes through.

EU-related: The people I'm directly engaged with... My Consultant is British, her Registrar is Spanish, the three "juniors" I've spoken to are 2 x British, 1 x Portuguese. All nurses on the hospital payroll who I've been engaged with are British. Agency nurses are not (don't know where from).

 

I support the Doctors in their aims for a fair contract, but I can't support a strike by those who enter the profession to take care of the sick, injured and dying. There HAS to be a way to get the contracts sorted short of walking away from the very people who need you to be there now.

 

Hope you get stuff sorted out Dipper. I've worked in and around the NHS for 25 years (though not so much for the last 8 or so) it's full of dedicated and very hard working people (including the traditional whipping boys, the managers) who have the best interests of patients at heart, nearly always. But the organisation is a nightmare. I have had two short stints as an NHS employee, and resigned both times after less than a year mainly out of sheer frustration at the ability, or lack of it, to get things done. What you end up with is a pot luck system varying from best in the world (my Mum had major heart surgery a couple of years ago - Serbian consultant - brilliant) to worse than third world - a couple of months ago in a routine check up a nurse got both my weight and blood pressure wrong, and you don't get more basic than those metrics. Equipment problems in both cases - had I not known enough to say 'I don't believe those readings, let's check on some other kit' I would have walked out of there in a total panic ( as it happened I did have cause to panic, but that was picked up through the private sector. All under control now).

Withdrawal of labour is about the only weapon workers, and in this case junior doctors, have. If you don't want them to use this weapon, don't give them a reason to. The vast majority of these doctors will absolutely hate what they are doing, but just because they have chosen a particular profession - one that requires years of training and long hours - doesn't mean they don't have the right to strike, although I struggle to support it as well. It up to Hunt and Cameron to sort this.

 

One of the problems we continually face is self-seeking politicians, usually with their own agenda, meddling in 'professions' they have little or no experience of. Education, medical and other vital professions treated as political footballs will never get it right...

 

It's up to all of them on both sides to sort it. This is clearly not a black-and-white issue, but like most things all we hear are the polarised views. I would say, however, that (imo) NHS workers are as vital to our country as the police, the armed forces, and the fire service. I personally think that these people should be protected and treated well, but also that they should not resort to strike action. The Police and Army can't strike, and there's a case for fire service and health workers being classified as such also. Sadly, all we will get are accusations and blame being cast when (as I truly hope does not happen) someone dies through lack of care when their doctor is on a picket line instead of by their bed.

I think the idea of politicians not being involved in public services is fanciful. It's a major part of their job.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...clared-his-income_uk_570d2d5de4b0fa55639dc1ae

 

1st time caller to this topic, mostly due to a wait and see attitude. Well, I've waited and what has prompted me most to add my two pennies worth is the amount of Financial gurus in this country that I have the displeasure of conversing with that are well and truly scared of a Brexit. Now these are European/Global finance gurus who's scared position, you'll be surprised to note, is from the EU perspective and how it will negatively affect the likes of Germany, France, Denmark, Holland - the powerhouses persay.

I'll try to structure this in 3 segments:

Financial and Industrial impact

There is a genuine belief that Britain after a period of a few years, will be more than OK, that this notion of guaranteed poverty being the result of exiting this exclusive club being smashed to bits, in the same way that Tony Fernandes is known as a great Businessman ( notice the ref back to our beloved RRRs.)
There is a feeling that Britain is more than capable, with decent strong leadership to redvelop and concentrate on producing and manufacturing, this may seem far fledged to you now seeing as the resignation of succumbing lazily to low cost countries is prevelant in all "Western World" countries and it will mean concentrating on core Industries but I happen to agree.
There will be initial resentment from the EU to do business with UK but at Minus growth, this will not remain tenable, and with goods sold at the right standards with the right price, no major firm will pass up on this.
We have seen this on many occaisions previously where for instance, when the pound has significantly devalued against the Euro and Dollar, UK goods have become very, very attractive and volumes have increased significantly.
I can assure you as a previous Procurement and Purchasing Head of a significant Worlwide conglomorate that the politics never came into the occaision as long at it did not hinder US Export control or EU legislation - (the UK is not about to be branded in the same boat as Russia and Iran by the way!)
As a country it is felt that there is the pre-requisite differentiation in skills still remaining to pull this off.
My opinion - I think that they are running scared of British resilience and they may well come out of this lazy stupur that Europe and US is in.

Relationships and security

Rather simply some will strengthen and some will become less important, Obama was well within his rights to offer his opinion (I like him by the way), but his opinions were flawed and without any real substance. The US WILL want to do a trade deal with the UK, and on the contrary of being at the back of the queue, the UK may well be at the forefront and used as a chip against the EU. There are once again, more than sufficient relationships and intertwined dependencies that this will never happen.
One question that should have been put to Obama, will the UK be at the back of the queue for your next lunatic war?
Scotland?, let them go if they want to, they're already counting their lucky stars at not leaving the UK last year, they won't anyway.
This could be an absolute stroke of genius if played out right, the borders will always be more open now then they were, UK borders however, can now dictate who they want in. You're going to have to do something though about the rights of any Commonwealth resident being allowed rights of passage, if that still exists, but this will be an opportunity to do so.
The UK intelligence is renowned for being up there with the best, co-operation existed prior to the EU and that will not stop now.
As for the residents of the UK, this may well be a force to unite as a people and concentrate on bringing back some good honest values to the isles.

The future and future opportunities

The gurus are running scared and the lazy status quo could be toppled. Should the UK make a rampant success (or even medium) where will that leave the false Utopia? Where will that leave the peoples of Europe that are already seeing an even further movement towards a centralisation that see has no bearing on them?
Likelihood is that the UK, as Iran and Iceland is now, (though not after so many years) will have reinvigorated itself and be the player everyone wants to follow (unlike our team which is doomed at best for 2/3 years of mediocre boredom).

My opinion

Sadly, the Global gurus need not worry. The UK will vote to remain and the opportunity will have been lost, not because of its people, but more because of the completely inept politicians that the media focuses on.
Me? I'm able to have this attitude due to being an Anorchist that has always chosen the flag of convenience.

Thanks for bearing with me,
Col, I'll be wearing my Union Jack underpants on my head for you on the Polling day, spoiling the Danes' view!!

Take care all

 

sadly I think you are correct on the way the people will vote. I also think the repercussions on the way the campaigns have been fought won't be forgotten for a long time after either

 

There's a voice from the past, good to see you Danelaw.

Never trust a guru. Especially a financial one. Ask them how come they are still working as they must be multi billionaires having played the big short in 2007/8, given their special knowledge. I hope they are right if we do drift off into the arena of the unwell though.

 

I'm a bit confused about Labour's suspension of Naz Shah. Obviously her original comments in 2014 was deeply offensive, and stupid with it, but she seems genuinely contrite and is actually doing stuff to make amends and educate herself. Suspending her is just window dressing, while Ken Livingstone can wander around saying 'we don't have a problem'. They do have a problem with people who can't distinguish between being anti-Israel or anti-Zionist, which are legitimate political positions as David Baddiel has just pointed out on the wireless, and anti-semitism, which isn't. I don't think it's a widespread problem, but Corbyn's lukewarm and tardy response to it (as is always the case when an issue doesn't dovetail with his personal hobby horses) doesn't help, and his response is probably down to a lot of his core support - the radical 'new' hard left Labour Party members - being the main culprits.

Of course what these idiots don't realise is that 'semitic' is a linguistic group including Arabic as well as Hebrew.

 

so has she been suspended for something she said in 2014

 

Yes. She suggested that Isreal should be 'relocated' to the USA. Actually I may have been a little too kind towards her above, as she managed not to apologise for it until it hit the media. And Labour's statement that 'she made comments that she doesn't agree with' is frankly bizarre.

 

Right, I am ready to make a Faustian pact. I will vote leave and genuinely hope for a Brexit if the leaders of the Brexit campaign - Johnson, Farridge, Gove, Irritable Duncan Smith, Graylet etc - promise to retire from public life permanently and totally on the day of the vote.

 

so no one at the labour party was too upset about it in the last two years
where was it said stan
at a public meeting or at a dinner party
why has it taken so long to become an embarrassment
(like my spelling tonight)