Alot of talk after Frankels win yesterday about how good he is, and is he better than horses of the past.The significant statement made by Cecil is that Frankel is the best horse he has trained and seen in his long racing career,to me that is more rellevent than any timeform rating. We have at the moment two of the best racers for a very long time in Black Caviar and Frankel, so whats the point in dwelling on if either of these two could beat horses of the past, We can dwell on though, who will win between these two. Moody stated that Black Caviar will not travel internationally until next year,and probably be enroute to Europe. Abduhla stated that Frankel will race next year if Cecil Wants him, so this is a no brainer. So summer of 2012 could bring us the clash of a life time. I think the Queen Ann Stakes would be the ideal meeting for these two superstars,over 8f even though it would slightly put the ball in Frankels court,Moody is going to put Black Caviar to 1200m but i feel that if Black Caviar is to be a great internationally she has to stay at the Sprints. Fate may have it that both of these horses may meet at the breeders next year, or will they evade each other like the plague, to the dismay of the racing public. So fellow members of not 606 who would win between Black Caviar and Frankel , both have explosive speed,can run from the front or stalk, high cruising speed, and good at several distances. The race of a lifetime 8f ,frankel v Black Caviar. Bring it on......
My suspicion is that these two horses will never meet. Frankel will almost certainly be campaigned initially at a mile, starting with the Lockinge Stakes at Newbury, which is no longer a favourite’s graveyard, followed by the Queen Anne Stakes at Ascot. They may be tempted to step up to the ten-furlongs of the Eclipse Stakes then but if not it will be back to the Sussex Stakes. If Khalid Abdulla does not win the Juddmonte International this year, he may be tempted to try and win his own money for the first time next season with his star. Should Black Caviar come over here, she will almost certainly be aimed at the big Royal Ascot sprints possibly followed by the July Cup. If the pair were ever to meet, the July Cup would seem to be the only possibility with Frankel dropping back to the six to take her on.
I'd be amazed if they ever met, my gut instinct though would be that Frankel would easily beat her over any distance even at 5 or 6f
I agree with Shergar that it is unlikely the other horse is better than Frankel. I hope Frankel does not not race overseas next year , unless it is France (which seems unlikely). It is always a risk going to the US for the Breeders Cup and there seems little point to go with a horse whose reputation is already sky-high.
Fulkes....id agree Frankel doesn't need to go to the BC to prove anything, that's just low grade stuff compared to over here. Goldikova is the 3rd best miler in Europe, yet she's pegasus over there. The only thing Frankel would gain from going over there is a bigger fan club, and a bigger global reputation. He certainly wouldn't be enhancing what people in Europe think of his ability
Cecil said today that Frankel would have only one more run this year. When the interviewer (I think it was Cattermole) said it's a shame we'll only see him once more this year, Cecil replied "You've already seen him 4 times this year".
If he was my horse I'd go International, Irish Champion, and finish in the QE2. He won so easily yesterday that I believe he could win all 3 of the above races. Tough schedule I know but if he keeps winning easily then I dont think the races will take much out of him
He hasnt even proved that he will stay 1m2 yet. I wouldnt be surprised if he did but 6f to 1m is surely his best trip. Would love to see Black Caviar, Rocket Man, and Frankel in the July Cup but it wont happen.
Eddie....Like I said thats what I'd do if he where my horse, because I'd be confident he will stay 10f no problem. Though I would have tried in the Derby aswell. On breeding I have him down as a perfect 10 furlong horse, so I think he could have won the Derby at a stretch
At the end of last season I wanted him to go for the triple crown but after the pace he showed in the Guineas, I doubted that he would stay 1m4 never mind 1m6. If he does stay 1m2, then it would be scary, I dont think anyone would doubt that he could win a July Cup and horses with that kind of speed just do not stay 1m2. He would have to be a freak of nature in the same mold as Secretariat.
I can think of quite a few 10f G1 winners who I reckon could have won a July Cup, the likes of Dubai Millenium Giants Causeway, Dancing Brave, even Sea The Stars
I dont think Giants Causeway or Sea The Stars would have won a July Cup but its all about opinions. Its worth remembering amidst all the comotion, they went 3 mile hurdle pace in the first couple of furlongs and the race was effectively, more like a 6 furlong sprint on a sharp front runners track. That did not suit the runner up who its safe to say, was not at his best on the day. With that in mind, im still not convinced that he will stay 1m2 at a championship gallop, but id love him to prove me wrong.
Eddie....It's worth remembering that in this country the sprints aren't that strong, there is no one horse that is realy classy. The sprints tend to attract a much lesser class of horse, you realy believe the likes of Kingsgate Native and Eqianno etc etc would have more speed than a Guineas winner like Sea The Stars. End of the day its all opinions but I don't think they would. Hopefully Dream Ahead can raise the bar in the sprinting division. As for Frankels Stamina, my first point ewould be take a look at his debut, a soft ground mile against a strong stayer in Nathaniel, and Frankel won on the bridle full of running. Horses as they age gain more stamina so I don't for one second believe 10 furlongs will be a problem. His dam on average produces horses that stay 9.1 furlongs whilst the average for his sire is 11.1, the average between the 2 makes 10.1, I know that's doesnt 100% prove anything, but I've found it a good indication over the years
I agree Shergar. The only reason there was doubt about Frankel staying beyond a mile was his style of running. But if he can settle like he did this week he will certainly stay further. As you say last season he looked nailed on to stay more than a mile this year.
Eddie....I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion Goodwood is a front runners track, I find the front horses can be sent for home to early, as the home straight looks shorter than it actually is, which leaves them voulnerable to hold up horses late on
Well, they say its a front runners track, obviously every race is different, but one things for sure, the track tends to suit horse with Frankels running style and long stride. Breeding tells you what a horse should like, but as everyone knows, it often means nothing. Sprint bred horses staying 2 miles and vice versa. I prefer to look at the horse to gauge its distance, and Frankel looks a sprinter miler to me. I agree that as a 2yo I expected him to get 1m2 easily but my opinion has changed. Im not saying its impossible but I will believe it when I see it. Cecil wasnt sure earlier in the season and the fact that he's waiting until the horse is a year older to even try the 1m2 suggests he still isnt sure. So i dont see how any of us can be sure that he would stay 1m2.
It is a shame that they look like being campaigned over different trips. That said, the first time I watched Black Caviar, the way she travels I felt she would be more than capable of getting a mile. But of course, they would be scared of losing the unbeaten record. Get her running at a mile and make some more sensational clashes next season! Great to see these top horses in the same season, lets hope they all stay fit and safe.
Frankel would give her a good race over 5-6F but Black Caviar as an explosive turn of foot even more so that the imperious Frankel. Anything further and Frankel wins. But they will never meet...
Moody has stated that he thinks the filly will get a mile, but I'm not too sure he'd be keen to take on Frankel at a mile. Over 6 furlongs, I thing Black caviar would be too good. Frankel showed outstanding speed against 3 year old prospective middle distance horses, that is a far cry from genuine world class sprinters. I'm not for a second saying that Frankel can't win against crack sprinters over the 6, but my money would be on the filly or maybe Rocketman.
If Frankel went flat out for 5 or 6 furlongs, which he proved he was capable of in the Guineas, i think he would easily win any sprint, Black Caviar or no Black Caviar. RH quoted before the Sussex that he would be amazed if Frankel had more speed than Canford Cliffs, and look what happened to him. Frankel is as quick as any horse I have seen
