Am I missing something. The junior doctors are offered a pay rise of 11% and will have their hours cut to a maximum of 72 per week. That is a 12 hour shift for 6 days in a row. Some doctors are currently working 100 hours a week and 10 days in a row. Is it not better that they work less hours for patient safety alone. Other public services work over seven days like the police and fire brigade and doctors knew that they would be expected to work some weekends . Apparently, about 10% may see a drop in pay although they must be working unbelievable hours. The vast majority will get a pay rise and none will get less pay if they work the maximum 72 hours already. I wouldn't be too happy having a knackered doctor at the end of a 15 hour shift making life or death decisions about me. What the government are trying to do seems like common sense to me. Doctors, by default, have public opinion on their side but are they right on this and should they strike? What do you lot think?
That's what you are being fed - what are you not being told? Even the new trade union law would not protect against a strike 98% on a 76% turnout suggests to me that this may not be as simple as you have stated. The unions and the AMRC have asked the government to go to acas - they will not - why?
Poor ****s don't want to work weekends and believe tending to the ill on a Saturday/Sunday should be incentivised.
My wife is a doctor... The changes the government are making having nothing to do with working on weekends even though they claim they are. The 'opt out' the government said consultants had was used by 3 consultants out of 7000, hardly the situation they claimed. The new contracts and rotas have no extra provision for weekend work - literally none whatsoever - the amount of hours worked at weekends by junior doctors is the same as it was. So why bother changing it? 2 reasons for the action 1) The 11% "pay rise" is a bit of cloak and dagger. A junior doctor starts around 23k and goes up to around 45k (bare in mind that 'junior' means anyone who isn't a consultant so the registrars who qualified 10-15 years ago are still 'junior doctors'). They then get a percentage increase to their salary for the amount of antisocial hours they work. If they have a 9-5 job the increase is 0% and if they have a 1 in 4 rota (so 1 week in 4 they do nights, 1 week in 4 they work a weekend, etc) then it's likely to be close to the 50% maximum increase. The changes are to reduce the increase for anti-social hours and the "pay rise" is nonsense, its like saying if you give me £100 i'll give you £50 then going to the press and saying "they refused £50!!!". 2) Lies. All the statistics about deaths at weekends aren't just incorrect they are untrue and known to be untrue. For instance, the study didn't show you are more likely to die at weekends. On the contrary it showed you are most likely to die on a Thursday, what is misquoted (intentionally by the way) is admission dies, people who are admitted on a Sunday are more likely to die than those admitted on other days of the week but they don't die on a Sunday. More weekend provision wont change that anyway. Jeremy Hunt has told 4 or 5 definite lies to the House of Commons which he was reported for through official channels and reprimanded - that is actually a criminal offence and yet didn't make the papers... funny that. Ask yourself this a) how many times have doctors been on strike that you can think of? b) What percentage of doctors voted in favour of striking? Or alternatively: Do you trust your doctor more or less than the minister for health?
All reading this has done has clouded the issue further for me. Media reports seem vague at best and now you say this which is near enough completely to the contrary of what is being reported. From what you say I understand the doctors' stance a little better but I still don't agree with doctors striking, the idea of it grates on me. My original position on the matter comes from one of sheer ignorance to be honest mate and I'm happy to be put straight on the matter... I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about doctors having worked at the Medical Protection Society a few years back.
I hear what your saying and I hate the idea of strikes. Just to clarify one thing though the junior doctors striking just means that elective surgeries will be cancelled and all the consultants will be in that day to cover. My wife can't strike that day as she's on call (holding a pager to be contacted if any patients go into acute failure) so there's plenty of cover - it's all the generic doctors in usually who wont be. The main thing that grates on many of the doctors is what you state - how clouded the issue has been made. The government want to cut their pay, but don't have the balls to say it so try and put forward any other argument. Firstly it was "doctors don't work weekend due to opt out" then it was shown that 3 out of 7000 have that so government stopped talking about it (but not until after Michael Gove got on the national press for going to a nurse led walk in clinic and complaining there were no doctors - sigh!) Then it was "higher death rate on weekends" which even the people who wrote the study have initially refuted then shown to be incorrect (as death rates are higher on Thursdays - not surprisingly as many surgeries aren't carried out at weekends). Hunt still goes on about this despite having being shown to be wrong though has at least now learnt not to say it to the House of Commons. Though not from his interview today this has become "Study after study has shown that our mortality rates at weekends are too high," - a lie which he must know I a lie, there's no wiggle room there!! Now it's a "pay rise" but the numbers don't back him up. The press report what he says as if it's gospel "75% will be better off" and yet the contracts and rotas they put forward don't show that to be true. The pay rise statement was one Hunt made not to the doctors but to the press on the very day they were going to ballot - coincidence? No he's playing the media. But the very worst thing (beyond lies and misrepresentations) is how even today he says things like "I urge doctors to just read the contracts" in a really patronising tone as if they haven't bothered. To become a doctor requires fantastic grades, years of training and some amount of intelligence (though this varies greatly!!) and he's talking as though they have been convinced to strike without really thinking about it or reading the information - but he's not talking to the doctors, he never has been, he's talking to the press and was from day 1.
Anyhoo sorry for mingling too much of my opinion in there I was initially just trying to put forward actual facts (there is some in amongst what I've said ) It's not something I'm able to be on the fence about and I'm actually just genuinely surprised by the media coverage, though it helps that some of the reporters have vested interests (the Michael Gove story was reported by ...erm... Michael Goves wife who is a journalist. They are good friends with the Hunts). ps. I wont be at all offended if someone says "sod them all, I hate the leeching bastard doctors they're all ****s" as I know a lot and some really are. Plus certain provision at weekends is poor (having to wait until Monday to get test results back is crappy and outdated) and there are things that could be done but genuinely the changes proposed will do nothing to fix that - it's a smokescreen.
Are you quoting me or reminiscing about the time your GP checked your temperature by putting his finger up your arse? I know
There are certain groups of surgeons who live by the idea that there are only two reasons not to carry out a PR (putting finger in your arse). a) you don't have fingers b) the patient doesn't have a bum
A thermometer in the gob is a better option as far as I'm concerned p.s. I know that that's not the most accurate way, otherwise they'd still be doing it
Thanks for your post Haslam. That's the first time I've heard the Doctor's side of the argument. I think it's right that the government are trying to get public spending down but my thought is that they are targeting the wrong places. In every part of the public services we see the management getting fabulous sums and golden hello's and goodbyes, huge pension pots and six figure salaries. These people often have ridiculous job titles like diversity outreach five a day coordinators and suchlike when in fact it's just jobs for their mates. Town clerks getting more than the prime minister (I know) and then, when faced with cuts, immediately get rid of front line personnel, close libraries and swimming pools etc. That's where the savings should be made. Get rid of one chief constable instead of six or seven coppers. What concerns me about the Doctors is the hours they work. Even a maximum of 72 hours a week is too much. They cannot be expected to perform at a high level if they are doing this very stressful job for continuous very long shifts and more mistakes will be made if they are tired. It cannot be right, six days in a row working for twelve hours and expecting a good service so when Hunt says that 72 hours would be the maximum I find it scary to imagine what they are working now. Surely 45 hours a week in this difficult job is enough. I don't trust our government but they are the ones sounding reasonable listening to the media (I don't trust the media either). I think the Doctors should explain their case better. Is it about the money? If so, how much would a Doctor lose from the £23,000 if this went through and how many would lose out. This is one of the things I don't understand. If it isn't the money then what is it that Doctors don't like. On the face of it, shorter hours and an 11% pay rise seems a good deal. I must admit that on hearing Doctors only got £23,000 I was surprised as they go through a lot of hard work to get that far. I know that eventually there is a very good wage further down the line but I think they deserve more than the £23,000. Going back to this package, what we need is more Doctors on tv explaining it from their side. The public supports them but they are not getting their case put across very well. My solution: get rid of 80% of all middle managers upwards (in all the public sector jobs) and increase the number of those actually doing a proper job. Less interference from above, more workers, fewer hours worked and an increase in basic pay.
Given the level of training and the massive weight of the burden of responsibility 'junior' Doctors have, their level of pay and working conditions are bloody awful. We need the best physicians to be working in our hospitals, but most bail out at the first available opportunity to the much more cushy and well rewarded world of the GP, and who can blame them?
There seems to be an awful lot of cloak and dagger in this - most people (as stated above) think that a "junior doctor" is your "f1/f2" doctors (Foundation years) when, in fact, looking at the above it is anyone who is a Dr not just those F1/F2 Dr's The government are trying to save money by targeting this now and saying "it';s all for the good of the people" when, as per most things done by conservative governments, it's all for the good of the rich people! When you listen to the doctors, these people who have studied for x amount of years and incurred huge debts, the "11% payrise" is actually a pay cut as their unsociable hours payments will be removed - this is a large part of their income at the moment and some dr's believe it's a 10% pay cut (some even more from speaking to my union colleagues) How would we all feel if we were working a few less hours but no longer entitled to the unsociable payments we received? I wouldn't be happy that's for certain. As someone who works as part of the NHS, with the conservatives are making my role a very nervous place to be. I back the Dr's 100%
It's just bloody ridculous that junior doctors have to work the hours they do for the money they earn. I'm with them 100%!! At the same time G.P.'s earn a **** load of money for less and less work each year, then make us taxpayers pay other or foreign doctors between £75 and £150 per hour after-hours to treat their own patients! Appalling.
