Barcelona isn't really all aero and chassis though, there's a long straight, elevation changes, acceleration zones etc and to be competitive in them, you still need power... and remember at that point, the McLaren wasn't running full power so all their aero zones will be compromised back then having to run less wing,had drivability issues with the honda pu etc. I seem to remember there though their times were awful in sectors 1 and 3 (closest cars were the Manors), but surprisingly competitive in the more technical sector 2 (were faster than Force India). As said though, it's impossible to say right now just how good it is because we've no idea how far down the Honda unit has been turned down race by race before Hungary and we've equally no idea just how much wing they have had to take out to begin to compensate. Around Barcelona time, it was calculated that the engine was running around 150-170bhp down to Mercedes and once the engine deficit was removed the car itself was fundamentally "only" 6 or 7 tenths slower than the Mercedes, though we don't know how much of that was still because they had to run less wing because of the power, so it could easily "only" be 2 or 3 tenths.... which is still huge, but compared to others puts them firmly in the race for second best. All things being equal though in the powertrain, it's fair to assume that if they had a Merc engine in it, they would at very least be quicker than Force India and Lotus with the same engine. There's no doubt they have overstated how good it is, but equally the chassis does seem fundamentally good if the power figure quotes are even close to correct. We'll see how they look with their "Ferrari matching power output" update. Hondas little comment was very much an "If we're still nowhere, don't look at us, we've delivered" statement.
I think we can all agree it's an unknown quantity at the moment, but whether the chassis is a good as they think it is when they have a competitive engine is different to them thinking they have one when running a powers deficit.
Despite McLarens strong result in Hungary they were well off the pace. Compared to The Ferrari's they were losing 2 seconds a lap, as well as eating through tyres quicker. They seem closer in quali these days but that's also a little artificial, the top teams certainly don't push in Q1, and probably don't give it their all in Q2 either. Button and Alonso were fighting to get out of Q1 so we can assume they were pushing hard, their laps of 1:24.6ish were a long way off the final Q3 pace. (2.6s behind Ham, 2s behind Vet, 1.9s behind Ric, 1s behind Vest). They are improving but they're still a long long way off. They're mixing it with the Red Bulls and STRs in the speed traps but is that through more equal power or very skinny wings?
What’s gone wrong at McLaren-Honda and how can they fix it? Examining why McLaren-Honda have endured such a difficult start to their reunion and detailing how and when they could recover... By Pete Gill Problem one: They under-estimated the challenge Were McLaren-Honda duped by the hype which greeted their reunion? Apparently so. While the team’s optimistic outlook for a glittering future remains steadfast, their recent backwards glancetowards the flotsam from their 2015 shipwreck began with a telling admission. "We knew it wouldn’t be easy, but perhaps we didn’t imagine that it would be this hard,” conceded Honda chief Yasuhisa Arai. "I certainly didn’t imagine technology-wise what we would be facing." BELGIAN GP- 23rd Aug Most in the paddock now believe that Honda, underestimating the scale of the challenge they were tackling, returned to the sport a year too early, a failing they have subsequently been hamstrung from adequately addressing. Due to the crippling restrictions on in-season testing and engine development, a vicious cycle has become a painful catch-22. "They are between the rock and hard place: there is a lack of testing and there is a penalty every time they bring in an update," notes Sky F1’s Martin Brundle. "The regulations are very tough for a new manufacturer." And even harder for a manufacturer providing a single team: whereas Mercedes supplied four teams when F1’s new turbo era began 18 months ago, McLaren’s exclusive deal with Honda means they have had to take all of the pain. McLaren-Honda have arguably never recovered from their disaster at Jerez, one of only three pre-season tests, when they registered just 70 laps across four days. Equally arguably, they never had any realistic hope of doing so. Problem two: Honda got their engine wrong Not only has the Honda engine been uncompetitive – Honda used up their permitted allowance of power unit elements for the whole of 2015 even before the halfway stage of the season was reached – but it has also lacked grunt: even in June’s power-hungry Austrian GP, the McLaren cars were 10mph behind their rivals on straight-line speed. There's now a widespread suspicion that the Honda engine is crippled by a chronic design fault with most fingers pointed at the competitiveness of their internal combustion engine (ICE). It is perhaps telling that despite their myriad of failures, Honda elected to only spend two of their remaining nine engine development tokens in the opening 10 races – tacit admission, perhaps, that a fundamental fault in their unit would have rendered any tweaks and subtle changes irrelevant. But could a glimmer of light finally be appearing on the horizon? Honda have confirmed that 'some' of their remaining tokens will be spent on engine performance immediately after the summer break with Arai revealing focus has been on the combustion unit as Honda seek to provide Fernando Alonso and Jenson Button with a much-needed boost in horsepower at Spa. "The key thing that has hit Honda is that power, reliability, and fuel consumption are, with these engines, effectively all the same thing," explains Brundle. "You have to have all three and if you don’t get the combustion right then you don’t have power, fuel efficiency or reliability. But the upside of that is that if they do get it right, then there will be big gains.” Problem three: Honda have tried to do it all themselves While the two partners continue to present a united front, there is clear daylight between the two companies on the subject of recruitment. While McLaren have publicly called on their partners to seek new personnel from their rivals – "Honda could have bought some experience from other engine manufacturers and maybe should actually," Eric Boullier told reporters in Hungary – Honda are adamant that they can fix their own problems. Citing fears of a culture clash if they were to recruit from their rivals, Arai has even voiced his reluctance to accept an offer of help from McLaren because of a predicted clash of technology know-how. Ultimately, seeking outside help simply isn’t in the Honda DNA. "The Honda way is to use Formula 1 as a learning platform for their engineers," reckons Sky F1’s Ted Kravitz. But it’s an approach which has left Honda devoid of F1 experience and shorn of a short-term fix for their current travails. "What surprises me is that they haven’t brought in people who have F1 experience from when Honda were in F1 before," added Brundle. "To fast forward it, I think they needed people with F1 experience. Pride goes out of the window. It’s about performance." Problem four: It’s not just the engine And it’s not just Honda to blame. Despite still being considered an F1 superpower, McLaren’s current ignominy is far from a recent exception. The team haven’t won the Constructors’ Championship this millennium and haven’t won a grand prix since Lewis Hamilton departed three years ago. This slump has been a long time occurring. While this year’s car is by no means a dud, the MP4-30 chassis may only be the fifth-best in the field behind the Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Even in Hungary, where engine performance is relatively unimportant, the highest-placed McLaren in qualifying was just 15th. "The car is quite good but I’m not sure it is as good as McLaren say it is. If it is one of the best cars on the track then why does it seem to munch through its tyres?" mused Brundle in Budapest. Peter Prodromou, McLaren’s newly-appointed aerodynamic whizz, still has plenty of work to do. Problem five: The weight of expectation Ever since their reunion began in earnest at the start of the year, McLaren-Honda have been at pains to warn that their revival would take time. Unfortunately, they have also been prone to making headline-grabbing soundbites and grandiose predictions of future domination which have ratcheted expectations to a fever pitch. "It is mindblowing, the engine is a piece of jewellery," McLaren boss Ron Dennis told Sky F1 last October. "They are further ahead than expected. The competiveness of the engine is without question." The MP4-30 was launched with a hashtag of #makehistory. Dennis then proclaimed: "I’m positive that we’ll get to where we want to be: winning Grands Prix and eventually World Championships as McLaren-Honda." By the start of the season, even the drivers had been swept up by the wave of optimism. "I don't know how long it will take, but this is the package that I feel will challenge Mercedes," announced Jenson Button. "I really do think that. This car is very important to the future of Formula 1." And then came the soundbite which is already casting a dark shadow over appraisals of McLaren-Honda’s first reunion: "We are not going to have a race-winning car at the first race, but we might have one at the last race." How Button – and McLaren – must now regret that prediction. But for their own grandstanding, the first year of Honda’s reunion with McLaren could be considered to still be within acceptable parameters of expectation. Objectively speaking, a struggle was inevitable and, in the wake of the Mercedes works outfit’s ongoing domination of F1, the logic of McLaren's decision to switch Honda remains sound. "No grand prix team is going to win a World Championship in the future unless it is the dominant recipient of an engine manufacturer’s efforts," summarised Dennis, and their 2015 indignities haven’t diluted that rationale. But it has prompted a change of timescale. "I don’t think anyone doubts Honda will get there, they are too good a company not to get there eventually," declared Kravitz. "But l think they have added a year or two to their target and it is going to take far longer than they imagined." And if Honda have erred on the design of their 2015 engine, they can’t afford to err again. "Ferrari and Mercedes have confirmed to me that with the tokens available next winter you can more or less redesign all the important parts and almost start again," says Brundle. "So a recovery is doable. But if they come in next year and they haven’t moved right up on to the pace then you would have to be very concerned. If they don’t hit the ground running in 2016 after that huge winter break then it will tell you that they don’t have the right people in place." And the right ideas. PG
The usual contradiction! McLaren-Honda expect 'difficult' Belgian GP despite new-spec engine More grid penalties expected as Honda introduce revised engine; Eric Boullier says team "need to wait for Singapore and beyond" before seeing big gains By James Galloway McLaren and Honda have warned against expecting any big performance jumps from them at this weekend's Belgian Grand Prix, with more grid penalties expected as they prepare to introduce a revised engine. On the back of a morale-boosting two-car points finish in Hungary, Honda have been using the summer break to work on a new specification power unit and have placed particular emphasis on improving the internal combustion engine (ICE) via the spending of an as yet unspecified number of development 'tokens'. Yasuhisa Arai, the Japanese manufacturer's motorsport chief, says F1's return to action at Spa will therefore be a key test of their work, but he is still expecting a challenging weekend. "As we planned, Honda has updated our combustion characteristics to further improve our power units for Spa and the second half of the season," Arai said. "This weekend's free practices will be important to test the pairing of the power units to the cars. The Belgian race, however, will surely be a difficult one for the team and drivers, with expected grid penalties and a long and unforgiving power circuit. Having already exceeded their penalty-free allocation of engines for the season - which was retrospectively increased to five last month - McLaren's drivers will pick up further grid demotions any time they run fresh ICEs between now and the end of the season. Team boss Eric Boullier insists the Woking outfit are "refreshed and determined to continue improving our form", but is also aware that high-speed Spa and Monza, the next two tracks on the calendar, are not likely to suit the MP4-30. "Spa is a truly spectacular circuit - arguably the best on the calendar for many - but, given the unique power and downforce package required, the track won't play to our strengths," the Frenchman said. "Therefore, of course, we must be measured in our optimism, and we will need to wait for Singapore and beyond before we can see the fruits of our labours reflected on track." With 70 per cent of the undulating Spa circuit spent at full throttle, Fernando Alonso is expecting a "tricky" few days, but has stressed the importance of the race weekend to McLaren.
For what it's worth, i think McLaren and Honda were both horribly arrogant thinking they could make it work very quickly and be even fairly competitive with an exclusive partnership. They missed an open goal with Caterham/Marussia IMO, should have bought them out cheap from the liquidators and run them as a Toro Rosso type outfit with KMag their lead driver purely with the goal of getting more mileage under the Honda units belt, more data as well as giving KMag and (probably) VanDoorne the experience.
Confirming what we basically knew. Belgian GP penalties for McLaren's Alonso/Button amid Honda changes McLaren Formula 1 drivers Jenson Button and Fernando Alonso will incur grid penalties at the Belgian Grand Prix after taking their seventh Honda engines of the season, AUTOSPORT has learned. Honda is hoping to match Ferrari's power output from Spa onwards with a revised internal combustion engine, featuring changes to the combustion chamber, intake, exhaust layout and gear-train system. To do this, it has used three of its engine upgrade tokens and this required a new ICE to be fitted to both cars. The rules state that a driver will take a 10-place penalty for the first change of a set of components and five places for subsequent changes to that set. As Button has already taken a seventh turbo charger and MGU-H, the move to a seventh ICE will likely mean he takes a five-place drop. Alonso has yet to use the seventh component of any element and is therefore expected to take a 10-place grid drop. Honda has made further changes to ancillary parts of the engine, such as to allow the ERS to pair to the ICE, and thus further penalties could be applied. The total penalties Button and Alonso will take should become clear once the cars run in first practice on Friday. Following a rule change last month, the most a driver can be penalised is to be demoted to the back of the grid, thus eliminating in-race penalties for these infractions. That system had been declared too harsh by some teams. The remaining tokens available to each of the four manufacturers are: Ferrari 7 (3 used) Honda 4 (5 used) Mercedes 7 Renault 12 ------------------------------------- Well it wouldn't be an F1 weekend without few McLaren penalties. Button may get away with starting from somewhere in the region of Pouhon, but Alonso will probably have to line up somewhere near Zandvoort
Great little trick of using 2 new engines each over the weekend. With the new engine penalties meaning you can only get demoted to the back of the grid no matter how many components you change. McHonda have cunningly decided to use 1 new engine on Friday and a different engine for the rest of the weekend. So they have engine 7 and 8 with just 1 race penalty, great way of using the rules to a teams advantage. Really hope it pays off and they get a decent increase in power and reliability.
Not looking good for McHonda. 3seconds off pace!!! If it weren't for Manor they would be last!!!! Hopefully just bedding in the engine and doing system checks.
Comical Arai strikes again. Honestly the man is a clown spewing propaganda for Honda. Nobody should pay attention to a word he says.
It's all well and good spouting propaganda but when the track results show no change what does that say about Honda!!!!! He should have kept his mouth shut.
Make no mistake, today was hilariously embarrassing for McLaren and Honda. After the talk of "matching Ferrari power", and their "brilliant chassis" you'd expect them to be in and around the likes of Force India and sauber at very least. Maybe not "beating" them this race as they got to grips with setups etc, but at least close. Then we have Boulier coming out basically saying "ah, but the circuit characteristics don't suit our car"... hold on, you've spent the last 6 months saying it was nearly all the power unit and the Chassis was brilliant, you've now got more power (allegedly around that of the second most powerful engine on the grid then and certainly more than Renault if that is true) and all of a suddenly it's the circuits fault you're still dog slow? If a car is running competitive power and is fundamentally a good car, it wont be THREE seconds off the pace ANYWHERE. What a monumental bunch of bellends they are at Woking.
What Honda and McLaren need to do is shut the **** up, and get down to work. The very idea that they would suddenly match a Ferrari- the most improved PU in 2015, shows just how deluded these guys are. I just get the impression that they don't have that critic internally that is telling them that no matter how complex their 'technologies' may be, and how 'great' the size zero idea is, they are delivering a **** heap of an engine. It sounds sick every time they downshift and try to then upshift back out of a slow corner, it doesn't reach the same top speeds as competition and is failing in every way. They don't need press releases, they need engine partners and they need some external guys coming in to put some fet back on the ground, pull some heads from some clouds and start to glue this monstrosity together.
