Just about the only battle named before it happened, by Churchill of course. Remember my grandad taking me to see the film at the pictures in Clacton when I was 7 or 8, and being very struck by the scenes when airmens' goggles filled with blood.
I think we all were. The aircraft was a German Heinkel HEIII, which l remember the scene very well. I've seen the daily diary of the RAF Fighter Command and can tell you that they were all but out of aircraft when Hitler took what remaining Luftwaffe aircraft they had left and sent them towards the Russian front. Churchill and the RAF had bluffed the Germans in thinking they still had many aircraft and men. Little did they know. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ars-battle-scuppered-plans-Nazi-invasion.html please log in to view this image
What eeks me is the way the yanks go all cock a hoop about how they won the war. Couple of things to point out on that subject. 1) If we'd fallen there wouldn't have been a place to mass before D-Day. 2) They go on about the P-51 mustangs being the best plane in the war. Not till it got a merlin it wasn't. 3) They made damm sure they got paid. Lend Lease could almost be seen as blackmail. I have every respect for the average Joe GI, they put their lives on the line but the political class is another story.
To be fair I'd actually Hitler lost the war, rather than anyone winning it. Letting Dunkirk happen was the stupidest thing he could have done. If the BEF had been wiped out I reckon we would have sued for peace. Then he could have come across the channel at a later point.
The Mustang proved to be the best long range fighter at the time, of which, with the Merlin fitted engines. At wars end, the Mustang was still there, along with the Hawker Tempest and Mosquito, strafing German railway lines and alike. The Mustang was best suited to long range support to the bombers. The most effective aircraft of WW2 proved to be the Avro Lancaster. It could by far, carry the largest bomb load. The 'Lanc' could fly higher than the Handley Page Halifax, which in turn, flew higher than the Short Stirling. The Lancaster often flew home wounded, on only one or two engines. History will prove the American Flying Fortress was no match for the Avro Lancaster. Fact - America ran the war in the latter stages. They, with Churchill & Roosevelt would nominate targets. The RAF only provided target knowledge and the means to do so. The Americans only flew by day because they were unable to hit the targets in an effective manner, by night. Bomber Harris and Bomber Command did not target Dresden ....................... but they copped the flak over it as everyone else, politicians included, disowned the men who were told to bomb that particular target. After the night time bombing of Dresden, the Americans bombed the city the next morning, for what reasons, little is said. I'll stand corrected but if my memory serves me correct, England only recently paid off Lend Lease in full, only just some years ago.
Nice post Aussie. I'm an amateur historian in my spare time. All very good and true points you make. I love the Spits but personally if I could fly any of them it would be a Mossi every time. Most versatile plane of the era in my mind.
Yep should have waited 60 years or so then he could have come by train, lorry or in the boot of someone´s car.
Very true Quality, the Mossie superseded the Mustang as 'target indicator' for the dropping of flares. The Mustang was only used on very rare occasions before it was retired from this role. The Spitfire ( earlier marks ) would surely be most peoples favourite looking aircraft but from all accounts, was very cramp and quite a pain to fly, compared to say, the Mossie. The Mosquito was very light ( made of wood & ply ) ...... very fast and evasive. could fly long distances, not to mention, turn and rally extremely well ............ so I've been told by ex crew.
Yep My grandmother's brother flew both. He preferred the Mossi. Cos of the speed he always felt safer and they could take a kicking like the Hurri. Put them in a high speed dive and he could get out of cannon range in seconds.
I actually think folk owe a debt of gratitude to France. Being landlocked with Germany she was always the one that would have to take the brunt of Nazi aggression against an army that was superior to her own in every way. She tied down most of the western front's Wehrmacht during that occupation and stretched it considerably, giving some breathing space to other Countries. The Americans, like every other Country, only joined the war when they themselves were threatened. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact its the first and primary duty of a Government to protect its own citizens, national territory and interests. That was and still is the sole focus of every Nation in the World. Anything else is a very distant second.
Sorry mate but that's utter guff. The French refused to believe some of their own general staff when it was pointed out that an attack could pass through he Ardennes forest. They used 1st WW tactics that had been proven to be obsolete long before Hitler was made Chancellor. They had invested so much in the Maginot Line that they refused to think of any other options. Least we forget at the treaty of Versailles, all other nations were saying that reparations would have to be paid over a period of time and not all at once. It was solely the French that push for immediate payment. It was this that led to the economic ruin that allowed the Nazis to take hold in Germany. (This was then compounded by the Great crash in the 30's) Their antagonistic attitude led to their own downfall at the hands of the people they were antagonising. If I keep poking you in the chest for long enough you'd bite back in the end. (like anyone would) I'm not condoning what the Germans did and with their attitude to their Final Solution there are many other things they were right to tried for but not of it would have happened if they (the French) had exercised a little common sense. Re. The Americans, I'll concede that they had every right to stay out of it till threatened but for me that doesn't excuse the way they behaved in regards to Lend/Lease. They made damm sure they got as much as they could out of it. EDIT: And let me add that if your gonna talk about people bearing the brunt of another countries aggression, it could be argued that the exploits of Napoleon were just as bad in the other direction.
They're all very good points RULES and its kind of difficult to dispute any of them. However, regarding the military situation, it wasn't just the French that were well behind the Germans militarily. The British were at this point too (as Dunkirk showed). If it were Britain that were landlocked beside Germany at the time, the same fate would have befallen her. No Country on the mainland withstood the initial onslaught, including the Russians. The truth is that everyone was caught off guard by a modern and ultra efficient war machine that was the 3rd Reich and it took them some time to lick their armies and everything else into shape. It was during the occupation of France that the British had time (time which they used very well) to get organised. I think folk underestimate just how good the German army actually was
We were nowhere near as bad as the French re. tactics. (but there is some merit in what you say) Don't forget that the BEF were under the command of the French high command until a matter of days before Dunkirk. You are right to point out that many were taken by surprise though. What didn't help was Chamberlains refusal to prepare for war in any meaningful context until it was too late. We didn't have sufficient numbers of high class weapons at the start but once we got out industries into gear, we finally caught up.
Sorry Rules. but I love this 'we' stuff when it's positive, and "Chamberlain' when it's negative. What Chamberlain did when selling Czechoslovakia down the river was exactly what the majority of the British public wanted, to avoid war at all costs, with the memory of WW1 so fresh. Churchill was a very lonely voice in those days, though the British, French and US governments had plenty of knowledge of the nature of the Nazi regime by 1934 (see 'In the Garden of Beasts' by Erik Larssen), they just didn't want to believe it. Of course Churchill sold the Poles, especially, down the river to Stalin at the end of the war too, but I can't figure out a way he could have avoided this without risking a war with the USSR. Nation states, doncha just love 'em!
Fair points. Noted. Hadn't spotted that about the we/Chamberlain. So true. Guilty as charged. Bit unfair on Churchill mate he fought tooth and nail not to let what happened to Poles happen but he was effectively out voted 2 to 1.
Have a look at the repatriation of the cossacks in 1945, Wiki is quite good on it. An unedifying story all round.
