Off Topic Political Debate

I don't know if it's true or another one of those urban myths, but I heard a quote the other day - "London is the fifth largest French city"

 

I think it is WY - I heard that London is also a political constituency for voting purposes but i suspect that is not true!

 

Did I ever say that human nature prevented socialism ? Please do not try to twist my words. I also did not hold Switzerland up as being a 'Socialist' country but was simply in answer to the question 'where could I imagine living`. Also, some statistics - the chances of being knocked over the head by a mugger are 3 times higher in London than in other West European capitals - the teenage pregnancy rate is also 3 times higher in the UK. The numbers of Britons living in France is 200,000 - the numbers of French in the UK is 137,862 - so it is clear which way the drift is !

 

Despite our differing political views I would like to wish all of my fellow horns a great and exciting weekend whether you will be at the match or watching / listening through the various media.

We should also remember our comrade (I use this word in the nicest possible way) Nic/Moo who hopefully is getting better daily. These are the things that really to our lives. I not sure there will be a dry eye in the ground as the horns emerge from the tunnel, probably to much to hope for that Moo can make this match.

 

The French come to the UK to work, the Britons generally go to France to retire. That says it all.

 

This could have been written by me - I did alright at work - by studying hard, qualifying for a profession and then working extremely hard. I am proud to come from a working class background, born in a NIssen hut (bet nobody knows what that is) on a council estate; attended only state schools and went to a red brick Uni. I have contributed far more to the state in taxes than I have ever taken in hand outs. I am glad that I have - and also glad that we have a good NHS, adequate welfare systems and so on. As you all know my wife has relied on the NHS - the drugs she takes costs thousands. My mother was totally disabled by Polio in 1962 and she received virtually zero help from the state so I know and value the difference.

Where I part company with the left is that I would only take sufficient money from people who earn it to pay for what people really need. I can see no reason to pay people for their children - not meals, not child care not child benefit - nothing - AS A GENERAL BENEFIT - only as a short term part of help people through bad times policy. Nobody expects to pay taxes to let a person house a couple of Great Danes or other lifestyle choices. Nobody has a fundamental right to have things and ask others to pay for them. We allow cosmetic operations on the NHS and other stupidities. It is there for genuine illnesses not for choice. The bedroom tax - good in principle but as stupid and unworkable as the Poll Tax. Food banks - is it only me who realised how convenient these are for advocates of the left - show people using them and it proves how wicked society is - really? Have look at those using them and see if you can find one who does not have a mobile phone. This is in danger of turning into a right wing rant - it is not intended to be but asks people what they really want to be taken from them by the state and given to others. I suspect that we could reduce tax by an enormous amount if we cut out waste and undeserved hand outs. What that would do is to enable the threshold of paying tax to rise dramatically - perhaps to £20,000 so then nobody would even need as much help. As everyone would benefit from this it would then be fair to actually raise the tax rate on the better off to claw back some of the gains from the higher threshold - a win win. (My own personal preference would also be to save 100 billion on Trident but that is another argument).

OK - those were off the cuff suggestions - but the principle should be only pay out of the public purse what you really need to, take less from everybody and have the state focussed on getting everybody into non state funded - i.e. private - employment. Then support people in transition,with long term illnesses and all other genuine cases of help that all reasonable people would like to see.

 

Apart from the Trident view this is the best post I have seen on here for ages. Sorry Leo if my agreement makes you some kind of leper!!

 

You agreed that human nature prevented the formation of your kind of socialist country.
Do they not have Specsavers in Germany? I didn't say that Switzerland was a socialist country but am intrigued how you could reccomend foisting the far left, with the Greens having a policy of 60% tax rate, on the UK whilst a tax haven would be suitable for you? Is this another case of the left ' do as I say not as I do'.?
Diane Abbot would be proud of you.

 

I'm always intrigued by how simple politicians seem to think eliminating waste and inefficiency is. It's highly desirable that it should be done but it always seem to involve the setting up of cumbersome monitoring systems which themselves come at a cost and aren't always informed or efficient themselves and don't always deliver any marked improvement. Maybe it's the case that without the creation of a culture in which work and performance at it is widely seen as something to be proud of there will always be barriers to improvement. That, I suppose, is a challenge for managers and employers as much as for their employees.

 

Fully agree with you Theo, and I would add that one politicians waste is anothers necessity - so they become blind to the realities and we have rubbish laws like the Bedroom Tax. In principle a good idea, but in practice an absolute nightmare. One of the root causes is they are sold on the notion that IT can fix their problems, but in reality it cannot because of the massive complexity of the laws, rules and regulations we have in place. It would be better to start a programme of simplification and spend 20 years working the complexity out and then design IT solutions that would really help support a much simpler model.

 

I would also save a few Billion on HS2 and improve the existing rail infrastructure.

 

I have an odd feeling that the majority of people are remarkably similar in what they actually want even when they appear to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. We have a huge difference on here - I am probably incorrect but would guess it goes from a very left Cologne to a fairly right Superhorns.

Yet even there I bet both (and many others) would support living in a society where ideally:
1 the disparity in wealth is nowhere near as great as it is in the UK today,
2 where people are encouraged to work for what they want - whether just to contribute to the betterment of society as a whole or for themselves and more immediate family
3 where people are not encouraged or permitted to sponge off others - be it by failure to pay appropriate taxes or by making claims for benefits they do not deserve
4 where all people are respected and how much money or possessions they have are irrelevant
5 where nobody is discriminated against on grounds of race, religion, colour,sex or sexul preference - or any other aspect over which they are not in control
6 where society undertakes to perform tasks that are better performed by the community as a whole rather than individuals or "groups"
7 where people are given help and encouragement to find satisfying and rewarding work
8 where those in temporary difficulties are aided and supported by their neighbours, family and the community (state) at large to return to their "norm"
9 where those in permanent difficulty are helped permanently
10 where there is respect for the country and its resources and future.

The extent of support for these helps to determine the extent of left or right ness but that is all. It tends to depend on whom or what you see as the biggest obstacle to achieving the above

 

Add Watford winning the league every season and Aztec Camera songs playing in every public place I ever go into and you've pretty much nailed my idea of Utopia

 

I was going to include Watford as a top 6 club in my list but did not want to exclude those very few who might disagree

 

Where do I sign?

 

Leo, I can agree to all of these gladly but with a few modifications - well, what did you expect ?

Points 1,2 &3. Work should be the only criteria deciding levels of personal property. There should be an agreed upon definition of what constitutes 'work' (If you like to read John Ruskin's definitition at some time). Where there is also a maximum level of personal posession. Also an end to being able to live on interest.

Point 10. I would modify to respect for all countries and for humanity & diversity. I do not see why I should respect my own country more than those of others.

I can add a few points. I want to live in a country which does not interfere with the politics of other countries, which does not bomb other countries, and does not think it has a divine right to be a global policeman obeying America's every whim - for this reason I would want to leave NATO.

I also want to live in a World which can be passed onto the next generation without having to hang our heads in shame. A society which does not shake its head in disconcern or disbelief when Pacific Islands disappear under the waves because of our pollution. I want a society which takes Carbon emissions seriously (otherwise all other discussion left vs right etc is pure luxury). We have the task of reducing our carbon footprint to 1980s levels, and nobody has as yet explained to me how this is going to be done within the parameters of free market Capitalism (an ideology which does not know the concept of restraint in anything).

In addition I would like to live in a World full of Italian women, with Spanish (or Indian) food, with temperatures similar to the South of France. I would like a level of political involvement (and regionalism) similar to that within Switzerland (also some of their environmental laws) - but forget their banking ! The league title would be fought out between nice clubs like ourselves, Norwich, Leicester etc. and there would be no Chelsea left (they can play in Scotland).

 

I'm afraid an "end to living on interest" and dividends I presume would condemn any western democratic government to poverty. Not possible, not likely and not a good idea. Try another dream.

 

For God's sake how long are you going to debate in this way ? Do you know how condescending and arrogant the expression 'try another dream' comes over ?

 

Glad Leo found a large degree of common interest - even amongst the "extremes" - shows that we are not really so different. The difference comes in the detail - and makes us very hot and bothered.
Agree with modified point 10 - think that too is on common ground.
On a personal level I agree with your next para except leaving NATO - and suspect it would have quite a wide appeal with that modification
Agree with the aims of your next para -but believe we have to find a way of achieving it within a world of restrained capitalism
We can all argue all night about the virtues of which women (or men!!) we like - and food. Your football theory should be the foundation of the new 10 Commandments.
Points 1 to 3 are open to debate (or we would have to close this thread)

 

Your statement regarding unearned income was so rediculous it cannot be taken seriously by anybody. Please try to keep within the realms of possibility or else it devalues the thread.