Off Topic Great Britain General Election May 7th 2015.

What makes me laugh Tobes is you talk of "we" as if you are all in the decision making process, you have not been asked anything about your opinions on Europe Nice or the Lisbon treaty. It was all done in secrecy.

TTIP done in secrecy

Everything is all going according to plan and not once is joe public being asked in the UK about any of it.

How much sovereignty do you lose before you say "oi **** off Eurotrash"?

 

It looks like Britain is the softie of all Euro members, others are taking advantage.

 

For someone who claims to be a ****ing expert on the subject, you're doing a good impression of someone who knows jack ****

The treaties of Nice and Lisbon weren't 'secret' at all, and needed domestic ratification in each EU state before they could become law. Both were ratified in Westminster.

 

I remember when you in the UK were promised a referendum on Lisbon.
Then the government went and signed the thing in secret without any referendum because the wind was blowing towards a no vote.

Then Ireland, threatened by France and Germany, literally and publicly, Ireland still voted no. The Irish government against the constitution held a second referendum and magically the vote was yes to Lison.

people are too ****ing melted by the politicians and media to even know wtf is going on

 

There was never a promise of a referendum on Lisbon by the Govt in power, so wrong again.

Parliament voted against a referendum

 

Tobes I must admit, I am too ****ing tired to think atm and am not able to input the usual energy I put into such discussions, even my pockets hurt atm , but I will take your points back up at a later stage. Kids have me ****in knackered and I'm under the weather.

#excuses

But, as for Europe not being federal. The EU is an internationalist's dream, they do not like sovereignty and borders and the pesky laws that reside within them, with the EU you have a system whereby you can influence laws without pesky voters of member states getting in the way.

When Ireland and every other nation signed up to the EU, none were told they would not have a vote in certain matters, and that is exactly how it has turned out. Only the bigger states get to vote on certain matters.
have a gander.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Europe

 

There you have it, as I said, a federal system like the original US system, not the current US system.

Why, well it's perfect to take over and control by corps and banks, just like how the US has actually been taken over by corps and banks, and they want Europe too, TTIP will make this happen even quicker as these corps and banks can take govs to court, yes when your gov does what's best for you the voter and a corp thinks it infringes on their profits, they can do something about it.
This includes having environmental laws repealed ect. The scope for corporate dominance is unlimited

 

Ah sure here it is from the EU themselves.

Towards federal Europe one doozie "
BUILD A DEMOCRATIC UNION" Democratic my bollocks.
http://www.towardsfederaleurope.eu/

 

Scroll down to the first article in that, Juncker on "Closer economic and political integration". Political integration, meaning European government, 1 you don't vote for this government, and 2 economic control, not integration, any member can't leave beacuse of economic threats, the very threats that worry Tobes.

 

The meat of it all is this.

The federal state will encompass Europe.
There will be federal laws which supercede state laws.

Politicians and cronies of member states still have their fifedom though they essentially submit to European rule in what will be more and more matters, over time, as more and more federal laws are passed by a select few hundred people none of us voted for.

The European federal "government" will expand year on year as will the number of laws and regulations of importance.

It is concerning because of the primary problem. With only a few hundren law makers with control over the entire European union and it's 724 MILLION people and you only need to infleunce a majority, not them all, and they are already politicians so they are bent(lets stop pretending they ****ing aren't) then it is a very real possibility that we will see a shadow EU government. (we already have one)


Anyone that thinks this unlikely, look at US campaign contributions and the laws surrounding them. Some groups fund over 50% of both democrat and republican candidate campaigns. There is a lot, A LOT of lobbyist money floating about.

US Senator Harry Reid on the political "contributions" made by the Koch brothers in the US.


Then there is the economic side of the EU which is essentially, and I kid not, run by the very businessmen that the laws will apply to.

I read a lot on Roman history and the similarities to our modern times are amazing, it's like we haven't evolved one jot since. But we do like to be ignorant, it makes life less complicated, we get softer and softer[/quote]

 

What part of - the UK will never be part of a federal Europe are you struggling with?

 

You know what's even more ****ing nuts, we already think government is just too big, now we have to pay for ANOTHER level of government
Trade happening within the EU could have happened without the EU, individual countries could drop tariffs without being in the EU, it just takes an agreement, there needs not be a central ****ing government unless thay want to federalise Europe, it's pretty ****ing simple like, we don't need an EU gov.

In the end in both cases a load of paper is signed but in my preferred scenario you are not handing over power to a bunch of cleptocrats and having to fund another government on top of your own government.

 

You talk like that is up to you mate. It's down to the scaldy few politicians that represent you. I would imagine that you might have said that about Lisbon, and they said, **** the plebs, we're signing it and they signed it. And that was a Labour government, the supposedly representing the working man party

It may not be now or in 2 or 4 or 6 years, but you've gradually been signing on piece by piece to little or no fanfare. You've already got one foot in the pool mate, only one to go and you're ****ed just like the rest of us, though you will have more say than most, still. It's a big steaming pile of ****.

We expect economies to just gow and grow on a finite planet with finite resources Keynesian economics are so destructive.

 

Britain's stance on a federal Europe has never altered and never will.

There is no political desire for it and it would never be accepted by the populous, therefore it'll never happen.

I therefore can speak with certainty on the issue. Lisbon was a nothing in comparison to a full federal European debate. We ****ed off the idea of the currency, Hell would have to freeze over before we'd say yes to signing over full socio economic power to the Europeans.

 

I see where you are coming from but that's misguided and I will prove it to you now.

Remember your gov promised that referendum on Lison but you didn't get it. Do you know why you didn't get it? Let me tell you.
Ireland voted no a month before. That is why you were not given a choice. There was real fear you would vote no and they took the choice away from you and the queen signed that goatskin.

Now how the **** can you say anything regarding what people want when the gov just wont give you a choice if you will not vote they way they want which they have already proven, a labour gov mind you, are you telling me you know government's end game cos on Europe Labour or Tory, it doesn't matter one ****ing jot mate. You wont be asked OR the conditions for creating a favourable view will transpire. It is always the ****ing same and people are like sheep.

 

The Govt didn't promise a referendum on the Lisbon treaty though, so that entire post is meaningless

 

Cameron is breaking his pledge to hold a Lisbon referendum
http://www.brugesgroup.com/eu/camer...e-to-hold-a-lisbon-referendum.html?keyword=23

 

Labour's broken promise of a referendum on the new EU Treaty is a betrayal of public trust


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ndum-new-EU-Treaty-betrayal-public-trust.html

 

You really do think your government, I mean the top of it, are not a bunch of crooked ****s don;t you?

 

The Lisbon treaty was signed by Brown, Cameron wasn't in power ffs