Is Brendan Rodgers a big enough name to attract the very best?

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Gerrez said:
I think it depends on your definition of a top tier player. Are these the world class players? If so, what is your definition of world class?

For me, a world class player (or top tier) is someone that wouldn't look out of place playing for any club in the world. That doesn't necessarily mean that get in that clubs first team as it stands either, it means they wouldn't be out of place at such a club. For example, I club could have Aguero, Suarez, Messi and C.Ronaldo in their ranks but Neymar or Bale wouldn't out of place if you swap them with any of those names. Its not about comparing other players because they could be playing in a time when we are blessed to have a abundance of talent. Messi and C.Roanldo are the perfect example of this. Both would be classed as the outright top player in any other era but they happen to be playing in the same time era.

Liverpool NEVER sign a top tier world class player. I can't recall us doing so in the last twenty years, maybe the last ones were Kenny Dalglish and/or John Barnes. We buy players that have something to prove and skills to develop. We buy players to have their best years with us, we don't players because they've just had them.

Take the crazy Andy Carroll deal out the question and we've never spent over £25m on someone. That's pretty crazy for a club of Liverpool's size. Especially when you consider our biggest rival was regularly doing that over ten years ago. Its not that we never had the funds either, we've had them. We just prefer not to buy the already made and proven superstar IMO.
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I try and steer clear of what is world class. There are some we can all agree about and then there's the debatable ones. I'm not saying you should be getting the best in the world. For example, IMO Sanchez, Reus, Godin, Garay, Greizmann are already top players but not world class. All in positions Liverpool needed and all players Liverpool should have gone whole heartedly for. Sanchez I understand you did, but I don't know why it didn't happen. However it shouldn't deter you.

Just regarding your point about players that wouldn't necessarily get into a side but that wouldn't mean they weren't world class. Imagine if Rooney was playing in the 90's. Not saying he's world class by the way, but would he have reached 100 caps with the likes of Shearer, Sherringham etc? Hmmm...
 
Gerrez said:
I think it depends on your definition of a top tier player. Are these the world class players? If so, what is your definition of world class?

For me, a world class player (or top tier) is someone that wouldn't look out of place playing for any club in the world. That doesn't necessarily mean that get in that clubs first team as it stands either, it means they wouldn't be out of place at such a club. For example, I club could have Aguero, Suarez, Messi and C.Ronaldo in their ranks but Neymar or Bale wouldn't out of place if you swap them with any of those names. Its not about comparing other players because they could be playing in a time when we are blessed to have a abundance of talent. Messi and C.Roanldo are the perfect example of this. Both would be classed as the outright top player in any other era but they happen to be playing in the same time era.

Liverpool NEVER sign a top tier world class player. I can't recall us doing so in the last twenty years, maybe the last ones were Kenny Dalglish and/or John Barnes. We buy players that have something to prove and skills to develop. We buy players to have their best years with us, we don't players because they've just had them.

Take the crazy Andy Carroll deal out the question and we've never spent over £25m on someone. That's pretty crazy for a club of Liverpool's size. Especially when you consider our biggest rival was regularly doing that over ten years ago. Its not that we never had the funds either, we've had them. We just prefer not to buy the already made and proven superstar IMO.
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And how many titles have you won in the last 20 years or so?
 
Treble said:
I try and steer clear of what is world class. There are some we can all agree about and then there's the debatable ones. I'm not saying you should be getting the best in the world. For example, IMO Sanchez, Reus, Godin, Garay, Greizmann are already top players but not world class. All in positions Liverpool needed and all players Liverpool should have gone whole heartedly for. Sanchez I understand you did, but I don't know why it didn't happen. However it shouldn't deter you.

Just regarding your point about players that wouldn't necessarily get into a side but that wouldn't mean they weren't world class. Imagine if Rooney was playing in the 90's. Not saying he's world class by the way, but would he have reached 100 caps with the likes of Shearer, Sherringham etc? Hmmm...
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Well, that's the opposite side of the coin to what I was saying and I entirely agree with you. Of all the players that have recently reached the 100 cap milestone (Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham and now Rooney), would any of them got that many had they not been playing in the last fifteen years?

Rooney is a very good player, as a player he will always have my appreciation considering my thoughts around work ethic and effort (see signature) but he's certainly not world class IMO. He could have been, he was brilliant when he first broke onto the scene. Maybe he believed his own hype too much...? Moving for such a large amount at such a young age may have effected him? Maybe the fact he wasn't the star player at Man Utd in light of those two things? Who knows.

I have already said though, I think it a travesty of the game that someone like Rooney will be rated higher than others such as Lineker and Charlton. Its not Rooney's fault, he's grasp the opportunities in front of him and made the most of it, fair play to him and he deserves it. The problem is the difference in the game nowadays. Rooney's had the chance to play many more internationals and against weaker opposition in a time when English player competition was perhaps at its weakest.

Like you said, would he have gotten as many caps in the 90s with Shearer, Sheringham, Fowler, Cole, Ferdinand, Wright, etc all around and fighting it out. Look at the latter four names there, they missed out because the former two were brilliant together.
 
Diego said:
Just pointing out that it is not a very effective way of gaining success, as for the " We buy players to have their best years with us" bit then i can only say you buy the wrong players.
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We don't buy enough of them but one manager did better than others; Rafa! That was until H&G came along and implemented the buy to sell policy.

I'd have much preferred us to go and buy two or three established top players this summer just gone though.
 
Don't know but we haven't signed one established top quality player since he became manager. I have no idea whether it is because of him or financial constraints on wages or just the transfer policy. I suspect the latter two.
 
Welshred said:
Don't know but we haven't signed one established top quality player since he became manager. I have no idea whether it is because of him or financial constraints on wages or just the transfer policy. I suspect the latter two.
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I think this is probably the main reason.
 
Welshred said:
Don't know but we haven't signed one established top quality player since he became manager. I have no idea whether it is because of him or financial constraints on wages or just the transfer policy. I suspect the latter two.
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Unfortunately our reputation in football isn't what it once was.

1 CL appearance in 5 years... no league title in 25, CL win was 9 years ago and last final was 7. Last cup was 2 years ago and that was "only" the league cup, with last FA Cup coming 8 years ago.

To be brutally honest, unless you're a player that looks at the history of a club, are we really that much more appealing than Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United, heck maybe even Spurs who have the London factor over us.

Players attract other players and keeping Suarez would have helped attract others I believe. Would Sanchez had come to us if he could link up with Suarez? Possibly...

That's why at the moment we have to take risks on players and hope to develop them (like we did with Suarez and Torres). Until we become a regular in the CL and compete for trophies again, we can't expect to compete with the other big clubs in England, let alone Europe for the top class talent.
 
InBiscanWeTrust said:
Unfortunately our reputation in football isn't what it once was.

1 CL appearance in 5 years... no league title in 25, CL win was 9 years ago and last final was 7. Last cup was 2 years ago and that was "only" the league cup, with last FA Cup coming 8 years ago.

To be brutally honest, unless you're a player that looks at the history of a club, are we really that much more appealing than Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United, heck maybe even Spurs who have the London factor over us.

Players attract other players and keeping Suarez would have helped attract others I believe. Would Sanchez had come to us if he could link up with Suarez? Possibly...

That's why at the moment we have to take risks on players and hope to develop them (like we did with Suarez and Torres). Until we become a regular in the CL and compete for trophies again, we can't expect to compete with the other big clubs in England, let alone Europe for the top class talent.
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Sorry IBWT, Liverpool did not develop these two players they only gave them a bigger stage to play on.
 
Diego said:
Sorry IBWT, Liverpool did not develop these two players they only gave them a bigger stage to play on.
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Is that not part of their development?

Would Ronaldo had become the player he is now if he'd stayed at Sporting his career?
Would Bale had become the player he is by staying with Southampton?

Torres had never scored 20 league goals in a season until he came to us and we turned him from potential into world class.

Anyway, that wasn't my point. My point was we have to take players that aren't ready made world stars for all the reasons I listed, and not just because Rodgers' isn't a huge name in World football.

Would Sanchez had come to us if we had Mourinho/Wenger in charge? Probably not, because he can get bigger and better wages and elsewhere and more chance of regular football in the CL.
 
InBiscanWeTrust said:
Is that not part of their development?

Would Ronaldo had become the player he is now if he'd stayed at Sporting his career?
Would Bale had become the player he is by staying with Southampton?

Torres had never scored 20 league goals in a season until he came to us and we turned him from potential into world class.

Anyway, that wasn't my point. My point was we have to take players that aren't ready made world stars for all the reasons I listed, and not just because Rodgers' isn't a huge name in World football.

Would Sanchez had come to us if we had Mourinho/Wenger in charge? Probably not, because he can get bigger and better wages and elsewhere and more chance of regular football in the CL.
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Players like Ronaldo, Suarez and Bale would have made it no matter where they went, the path would have always been upward.

I said earlier in the thread that in my opinion your main problem with attracting "star" names is wages, you only have to look at teams like PSG, City or even QPR to see this is true.
 
Diego said:
Players like Ronaldo, Suarez and Bale would have made it no matter where they went, the path would have always been upward.

I said earlier in the thread that in my opinion your main problem with attracting "star" names is wages, you only have to look at teams like PSG, City or even QPR to see this is true.
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It's not merely a question of wages. We could pay star wages and comparatively we did so with Suarez but we would then go totally against the strategy that the club has settled upon of developing younger talent. To FSG the totally open market that exists in Europe does not make sense in the long run. The more so when they knew from the time that they purchased the club that they had to increase capacity as an essential part of their commercial plan for the club.
 
Foredeckdave said:
It's not merely a question of wages. We could pay star wages and comparatively we did so with Suarez but we would then go totally against the strategy that the club has settled upon of developing younger talent. To FSG the totally open market that exists in Europe does not make sense in the long run. The more so when they knew from the time that they purchased the club that they had to increase capacity as an essential part of their commercial plan for the club.
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Dave, FSG`s strategy only works if you can identify the talent at a young age and are prepared to stick by 6/7 players for a sustained period to prove it works.
If you look at their other strategy (money ball) then it will never work in football. The whole thing about money ball is you can have one individual (a hitter or a pitcher) that is extraordinary, in football you need players who fit the team.

Suarez was only on good wages compared to other Liverpool players <ok>
 
Diego said:
Dave, FSG`s strategy only works if you can identify the talent at a young age and are prepared to stick by 6/7 players for a sustained period to prove it works.
If you look at their other strategy (money ball) then it will never work in football. The whole thing about money ball is you can have one individual (a hitter or a pitcher) that is extraordinary, in football you need players who fit the team.

Suarez was only on good wages compared to other Liverpool players <ok>
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FSG quickly found out that Money Ball did not work in football as you say. However, even in baseball t was a more complex mechanism than is generally understood. All the noise was about the star pitcher/batter but they also invested in the 'lesser' players.

Sure the younger player strategy demands both time and consistency. With their support for FFP, FSG are taking that long term strategu. I'm sure that they believe that we are in the final days of the tv rights/sugar daddy strategies. If football is to survive as the premier earning sport entertainment then sooner or later it has to return to the pockets of its supporters.
 
Foredeckdave said:
FSG quickly found out that Money Ball did not work in football as you say. However, even in baseball t was a more complex mechanism than is generally understood. All the noise was about the star pitcher/batter but they also invested in the 'lesser' players.

Sure the younger player strategy demands both time and consistency. With their support for FFP, FSG are taking that long term strategu. I'm sure that they believe that we are in the final days of the tv rights/sugar daddy strategies. If football is to survive as the premier earning sport entertainment then sooner or later it has to return to the pockets of its supporters.
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Suggar daddies are dead (not so sure about the TV rights issue), I think we have another few years yet before the bubble bursts.
 
Diego said:
Suggar daddies are dead (not so sure about the TV rights issue), I think we have another few years yet before the bubble bursts.
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BUT, the bubble will burst. Football is becoming too expensive for the tv companies. Round the world they are looking at alternative sports upon which to build their audience base. Also sports in which they can become a controlling interest.

So as the squeeze comes on tv revenues then clubs will seek to regain control over players and their wages - and they will succeed.
 
Foredeckdave said:
BUT, the bubble will burst. Football is becoming too expensive for the tv companies. Round the world they are looking at alternative sports upon which to build their audience base. Also sports in which they can become a controlling interest.

So as the squeeze comes on tv revenues then clubs will seek to regain control over players and their wages - and they will succeed.
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From a world view, which alternative sport do you see overtaking football in the forseeable future?
 
A smart club with the pluses and minuses of Liverpool (or their tier: United currently, Arsenal, Atletico, Juve) SHOULD bid left and right for players like Suarez at Ajax, Torres at Atletico, Drogba at Marseilles, Cristiano at Sporting, Henry at Juve etc AND hope that Real, Barca, City, Chelsea, Bayern, PSG don't come with guns blazing into all the bids. Odds say that they won't and can't possibly do so.

But have we lately bid for anyone of that caliber bar Sanchez, or lowballed on Willian, Costa and Shaqiri? Not really. We should have been more determined on the latter, and also gone in for players like Khedira, Griezman, Isco, Koke, Navas, Rodriguez(Swiss), and even Deulofeu.
 
Moneyball is just using stats and data analysis as part of the decision making process. Everyone uses it, including us. It's still a very good idea. The problem is, if everyone is doing it, then the competitive advantage is gone and you're just doing it to keep pace.
 
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