Yes when looked at like that or that they've only just been trusted to have sex, ride a moped, drink wine with a meal....etc. But then if you look at it from the point of view that 16 in Scotland allows you to leave home, get married, have kids, have your own place, work full time which includes paying full tax and national insurance it seems more fair. It's why graded levels of adulthood need to go, be it all up to 18 or all down to 16. You can't be asked to pay your full way as a citizen but not have a full say or rights as a citizen.
I kind of was referring to the former state of affairs in Ni based on frank's comments. I was in berlin, and dresden and those are flying. the town i was in was small but as it had a big plant making stuff there was full employment. I can see how though the border to poland and czech republic is an issue as the germans pay lots of tax and the others don't so much so i could see lots of issues there.
There was an interesting debate on Radio 4 concerning the ability of any UK government to actually negotiate a secession deal with any potential Scottish government should the referendum return a YES vote. Whilst the SNP have a mandate for such negotiations, no UK political party forming a UK government actually has a political mandate to negotiate any deal. Therefore the argument went, that any 'deal' would have to be put to the rump of the British electorate for approval. So given that the Scottish referendum has taken a minimum of 3 years to organise, no agreement can be achieved until the British population has approved it. If the UK electorate (which would somehow have to exclude the Scots) said no then Salmond would be left in a very precarious position should the vote in Scotland go the YES way. Independance in name only? More practically, I agree that sentimentality appears to be playing a big part. I am also suspicious of the reporting which is desperately trying to engender controversy. Sure the YES camapaign held a tiny lead in the last YouGov poll - but only if the 8-10% Undecided vote was ignored. Now any researcher would say that such a large proportion cannot be merely dismissed!. I have yet to hear any solid fact from the YES campaign - there is no currency agreement, no EU agreement, no national debt agreement or even an agreement on the NHS. Somehow, magically everybody will agree with what the SNP want to happen!! Therefore in the cold light of day the risk is just far too high.
Except the SNP have been fooling the Scottish public on the oil thing. International precedent has maritime borders following land borders. For some reason the Scottish seem to think the border with England is horizontal. It's not, it's diagnol. Now draw a line diagonally out into the old wells and you'll see a sizable chunk are English on that basis. Just Keeping the current spending without English subsidy (as its not being replaced by all that oil money) Will require significant tax increases, at least to start with, 30 years or so. The No campaign may be negative...but cold hard truth is rarely welcomed. Doesn't mean its not actually real though.....
Don't think you can count Berlin (which was partly West German as well) as representative. Dresden is a better example, but I did say that a couple of the major towns and cities would be exceptions. Poland and Czech Rep aren't so much the problem as West Germany, which pays better wages and has more jobs.
Looking objectively no because it'll be bad for Scotland. As someone living in Northern Ireland no because I can't be arsed with nationalists and republicans comparing the two.
Can't agree with your last statement Frank. When the voting age was reduced from 21 to 18, ask yourself just who was pushing for the change and why. Where there any major demonstrations on the streets? Was the general public crying out to rectify a change and stop the denial of inalienable freedoms? No, there was a campaign amongst the chattering class members of the politico and academic fraternity.
I wasn't actually suggesting a reduction merely pointing out that graded levels of citizenship are illogical. Move everything up to 18 rather than down (I actually would favour that and insist kids stay at school that long )but I find it illogical that that: You can be trusted to turn up to work each day and with the institution of marriage and raising the most vulnerable thing in our society, children but somehow you are not mature enough to select out of 3 or 4 predetermined parties to rule over you for 5 years.... As I say I personally would favour the higher age on all the rights in question as I think there's more chance of general maturity to suit those rights.
It's a simple matter of pride in the end. Yes, there will be some growing pains, but as a prideful people their souls will cherish independence. Akin to asking, should an adult, say Enricky, move out of his parents' attic and search for life on his own.
Terrible analogy. And it isn't about pride, it's about peoples lives, there jobs, futures and there identity.
I disagree. Nationalists and ideologues typically are more fervent voters and get disproportionately high votes. At least that's the case in the US. The "Yes" campaigners are more likely to show up to vote than "No". Even if over 50% don't want independence- if the opinions are close, Yes will win. Naïve wishes fueled by fairy farts! They seem to think that they can keep the currency, immediately join the EU, have 0 debt, 100% of oil revenue - and it will continue forever, keep all their banks and other industry. They are so naïve in their thinking it's absurd. Condition of independence. You want independence- the condition is you take your fair share of debt. If you then don't pay it- you're in default. We can give Scotland independence, and should if they want it, but remember that we can and should set conditions of that independence- part being, that they shoulder a fair share of debt. Not if they want to join the EU. No new members allowed who do not join the Euro! Remember, if they're being awkward in negotiations and want to steal our currency and/or not share responsibility of debt, we can keep them out of the EU ourselves- they have to get full approval- we could block them! I don't see it changing things in Northern Ireland though. You're one side of the isle or the other (unless you want an independent Ulster). Scotland gaining independence will not make anyone change sides. The majority will still want to remain in the Union. Honestly though, if they left, they're a much smaller part of the union it won't upset the dynamics that much. Indeed- short term there would be a lot of costs. Long term companies will no longer benefit from the same size "market". Economically, companies grow best when they're in a larger home market. (Despite EU being economically and demographically larger than the US for example- look how many US global companies there are compared to EU global companies). I'm all for splitting up regions for better administration purposes. Think England needs to be split up too into North, South, and Greater London, each with local powers. I think they knew what they were doing. They knew 16 year olds are more likely to vote with head than heart. They don't know full realities of the world at that age. Becoming an adult is a gradual process. You think you're one when you're 16... 18... 21... etc... but when you look back at things a few years later you always realize you weren't quite there. I think you're not really a full adult, with understanding of what that means, until you've been out of (school/university) for a few years working a full time job living in your own place. Voting age... I think 21 is a reasonable age to start voting. 18 year olds are not even mature enough really to grasp the implications of certain votes.! You just want the independence vote so Quebec can be independent!
Aye, that debt repayment, providing a workable NHS, schools, welfare all within reasonable taxation, while encourage business growth and international investment will all be possible if they paint their faces blue and beat their chests in pride.....maybe shouting FREEDOM As they do it. As I said, "emotion","spirit", all symbolism are all sleight of hand tricks to convince you the made up lines on a map and the new guy forcing you to bend a knee are valid..... Apparently some would be seriously easy to fool...... Personally, my question is never how shiny is the lion or Dragon but, will I have a job, school for my kids, a car, roads for my car, a doctor, .....negative empty stuff like that........
No harm but the idea of some inspiring patriotic warmth has always seemed like wishful thinking and nonsense to me. Same world same **** different flag.
Horribly naive, I'm afraid. Will their cherishing souls nurture their every need should the economy not perform to their idealistic predictions? An economy based on Whisky? Give me a break. Oil and gas are their best bets, but the majority of income goes to the extraction companies so they'll only get the tax from it. Plus, it's one of the most volatile (pun intended) markets on the planet and to base your economy on something so unpredictable is insane. I truly hope that if they go through with it they have a better plan than has been evident thus far.
The danger of a narrow NO vote will be that Salmond will keep coming back until he gets the answer he wants! In the meantime the uncertainty all this will cause will be severly damaging to the UK as a whole. I couldn't care less if they vote Yes or No but what I do hope is that we get a decisive vote one way or the other!
