Perhaps I should have said: "...in the last quarter-century". Are you proposing a third category? Cos I know plenty of people also say that Jol did nothing special with the players he had and someone else could have done better. So you certainly seem to accept the existence of the first two categories (assuming you regard Francis, Pleat, Graham, Gross, Hoddle, Santini, Ramos, AVB and Sherwood as failures) so is there a third category? Either way it's incredible that your response to our best team, best league positions, only CL campaign is "anyone could do that". Please see above for a proven (not invented or imagined) list of peopl who apparently couldn't do that.
Why is it so incredible that an Average manager (which is what Redknap is, at best), should take a demotivated team playing under a clueless manager (which is what Spurs was, immediately before Redknap took over) and get them playing to the potential that Jol had already shown they had? It's clear that you worship Redknap and think he was the greatest manager the world has ever seen, but I don't share that view, and neither does any other Spurs fan whom I have met and discussed this topic with.
Well if any average manager can do it I guess all is well in the world and we can all look forward to basically any average manager taking over in the summer and getting us 4th. Piece of cake. I don't worship Redknapp. I support Spurs. So am happy when they do well. Under Redknapp they did well. So I just don't understand fans wanting to criticize that time and say "Yeah well anyone could have done that and frankly it wasn't even good enough anyway". Basically that sounds like a spoiled, delusional bitch and I'm sure that any fan of any other club seeing Spurs fans bemoan the Redknapp era would rightfully ridicule Spurs and their fans in exactly the way you love to WUM pool fans.
As Spurf would say, HIAG is on bollocks time and spilling out the usual trash, hiding behind the self proclaimed Wum persona .... Although HIAG I know that you where hoping for Redknapp to sign a new contract (and stay) during the 2011/12 season, why would you have been hoping for us to keep an average manager? It's similar to when someone gets dumped by someone they are still in love with, what do they do? They tend to insult them or downplay their importance and in many ways your attempts at discrediting Redknapp prove the opposite of the bollocks you're coming out with.
What strikes me is that recent developments have done nothing to boost Redknapp's achievements at Spurs. He had Bale, Modric, Ade, Parker in his footballer of the year form, Lennon at his best, and Ledley and Kaboul at his best, not to mention VDV. Compare that team to last year's and possibly even this year's, one of which got more points and the other which still might.
Redknapp created that team in his final season as he was here for four years and his main achievement was getting champions league football with players like Bassong, Defoe, Lennon, Crouch, Gomes and an inferior team to one in his final season, not to mention the exciting CL nights at the lane. The team in his final season was only here because of him, he signed Adebayor and Parker, He signed Kaboul and partnered him with King and he set the team up to play 4411 with Vdv behind Adebayor and when Modric refused to play, Redknapp got him performing again, but we only had that team for one season and during that season people like HIAG where hoping for Redknapp to stay and it wasn't until things turned sour that they decided to change their view. But as for comparison with the points total of Avb, last season we went through games of playing crap but Bale would win games but the difference between the two managers is Avb took us from 4th and left us in mid table. Redknapp took over and done what Jol couldn't do which was get us 4th and built upon the work done by Jol and got us CL footy and when sacked left us in 4th so if you want to talk about achievements or try and downplay them then look at the league progression under Redknapp, rather then focus on his final year, as two years on and we're still desperately trying to get back in the top four.
True enough and an interesting point. Three things would be: 1) The teams we're playing against are different too so it's, to some extent, comparing apples to oranges. Though is definitely interesting and not totally irrelevant. 2) A manager is normally given some credit for the players that he brings to a club. Of those you mention Harry brought in Ade, Parker, Kaboul and VDV. So credit to him for that. And in fact I think that his transfer record will bear up to comparison with any Spurs manager before him and since in the last 25-odd years - he had fewer failures and more successes. 3) And as for the players that were there already does he also not get some credit for the fact that they were "at their best" when he was there? And he handled the King situation about as well as it could be, by the looks of things, getting a pretty decent season out of him which made a big difference.
If fans remember the first three years of Redknapps management, they where likely proud to be so supporting Spurs, Enjoying the football and feeling elated when Crouch scored to get us 4th or when we beat the Milan teams. Their views on Redknapp would have been different back then. Similar to his final season when most where enjoying the period where we where being called outside bets for the title and playing the best football in the land. None of this was handed to Redknapp on a plate, no matter how people like to spin credit another direction but we know it's mostly because of Redknapps personality as if he was Jol, fans would give him more credit. But for all the Jol fans, Jol was a good guy, a gentleman, but in the end he left us struggling near the bottom (our worst start in 19 years) and was out of his depth. He didn't have the ability to build a team and take it to the Champions league so if anyone wants to make cheap shots at Redknapp, you can apply these same remarks to the gentleman Jol.
Whoah! We both typing away making the same points back there! The bit in bold is the thing, though - it was bloody brilliant being a Spurs fan then. It was a hell of a lot of fun, the football was exciting more often than not and I remember, for the first time in my adult life, really feeling in my bones that we were better than some of the top teams when we played them. Of course against the likes of bloody Chelsea we'd still somehow lose due to fantasy goals/offside goals/general cheating or whatever but against them, against Arsenal, against both the Milan teams, against City etc, etc I had a tangible and definite feeling like we were just bloody better than them. If someone wants to go on about how that wasn't all that good or how no credit should go to the manager for that happening than I think they're just talking bollocks, basically, and probably just want to make noises rather than try and articulate something that they really believe.
Lenny cheers for putting that in bold ...... I keep telling my mobile device to ease off on the "smart" prediction text or adjusting my sentences! but the lack of credit (towards Redknapp) does say more about them making cheap shots (or noises) as you're right they don't actually believe it. Similarly, I disliked Avb and I couldn't stand his personality but I can still give him credit for aspects of his management, even if it was largely depressing to watch.
Whether many on here will admit it or not, it is the relative success under Redknapp that has created this 'sense of entitlement' around Spurs, which some will think has always been here, but those will not remember our dire teams for many many years including relegation. Today we have people wanting us to fail to get into the Europa league so we can concentrate on bigger things. It wasn't that long ago that getting into Europa seemed a distant dream, and basically we were not good enough. And may I say the gap between us and that other team in North London was huge. These things are different now, but what you see is threads about whether you are embarrassed to support Spurs and that this is the worst season ever.
"Sense of Entitlement" No complete baloney. Jimmy Greaves, Arthur Rowe, Bill Nick, Ossie and Ricky, Gazza, Martin Peters, Berky, First team to the double, first Brit winners in Europe,RecordFA cup winners (not any more), Lineker, Hoddle,Mckay, Brit record transfers, to name just a few.
I think we're entitled to feel entitled after all the money that 's been spent!.. In all my years of following Spurs through good and bad times, apart from the early 60's, we have always been a "nearly" team. Despite whatever talent we have had in our sides, and it's not just since the Redknapp era, we always just seemed to lack the consistency to win the title again. We had some great players in the late 80's early 90's including three of the England team that so nearly made the 1990 WC final...Gazza, Lineker, and Waddle. I will credit Redknapp with giving Bale his chance. However, I think there was an element of luck in that. We also had Modric, VDV. I suppose it's a vicious circle in that we get forced to sell our top players as their ambitions are greater than they feel they can achieve at Spurs. And because we have sold those players we are then in a worse position to try and take that final step. You can't blame players, such as Bale, for aspiring to be at the top, top level. It's where he belongs, and Spurs are a long way from that level. The only way we are ever going to break that circle is to stop selling our best players. To avoid that, we have to show them that they can achieve their ambitions at a Spurs. Whether there is the will in the club's hierarchy to do that, is another matter.
No doubt Redknapp does deserve a lot of credit for acquisitions--though I don't know how much--for developing various players, especially Bale, and for developing the team's style as a whole. But however true that is, the point remains that he ended up getting remarkably disappointing results with his last team. However much credit he deserves for getting that team together and playing as well as they were, to have only guided them to as many points as they got (70? 72?) is a distinctly lackluster managing result for that year. On the other hand, his ability to get Crouch and company to the CL spot the first time still seems like impressive work. Spurs have been the ultimate "nearly" team lately, and it accounts for a lot of the negativism, I think. Having prizes and goals snatched away at the last moment does nothing to breed happiness, satisfaction or optimism among fans. I tell myself no run of bad luck lasts forever (and there has been a certain amount of luck involved), and that the right manager next year will get us success. We'll see. I wish we could stop selling our best players but I don't see it happening at all, given how ENIC has done business and the fact there is a new stadium to finance. It seems the best I can hope for is that we buy and sell well.
RWAB, You have every right to question Redknapp in terms of that season but I think overall we viewed that team as being better then it actually was as while we had some fabulous footballers, we still had flaws and give or take 3 points in reality we couldn't have hoped for much more, if we're being honest. Yes we should have got 3rd and yes Redknapp will still kick himself for not securing 3rd spot but we where never title contenders and we also never had viable backup for Modric, Bale, VDV, Adebayor, King and before Pnp makes a sarcastic remark about Redknapps lack of squad use the team that year was very much the first Xi and not much else. Avb deserves credit for the record points total even if it was achieved in depressing fashion and even if I believe he was lucky to have benefited from the progression of Bale as Bale on his own must have won us more then 12 points. But overall the important thing is Jol, Ramos, Redknapp and Avb have all achieved something, either starting the process, Winning a cup, Taking us to the CL or a record points total and we should credit managers for their role rather then try and pass credit elsewhere just because we don't like someone's personality.
Not true. Kranjcar, Pienaar, Townsend, Dos Santos, Bassong, Pavlyuchenko, Defoe, Huddlestone, Corluka, Saha, Dawson, Rose and others were all available at various points of the season. Our first XI was Friedel, Walker, Kaboul, King, Assou-Ekotto, Lennon, Parker, Modric, Bale, van der Vaart and Abebayor. Our second XI could've been Cudicini, Corluka, Dawson, Gallas, Bassong, Dos Santos, Huddlestone, Sandro, Pienaar, Kranjcar, Defoe. That still leaves Gomes, Saha, Rose, Townsend, Falque, Livermore (who played 38 games in all competitions), Nelsen, Kane, Pavlyuchenko and a host of others.
Be serious, you're clutching at straws by using players like Rose, Falque, Livermore, Kane who where either crap, not ready or players you have slated and there wasn't a host of other names. Sandro was injured for part of that season and Pav wasn't a viable alternative to Adebayor. Dos Santos wasn't good enough for the PL and the defence had no backup for King as he held that defence together in terms of marshaling it. Plus you have used Saha and Neilson who Redknapp signed as cover and used but where desperate signings as Levy had already decided not to fully back Redknapp. Plus Huddlestone was plaughed by Injuries that year, Redknapp was a huge fan and used him to great effect when fit but he was out for ten months.
Oh and Townsend back then was a unproven kid who we now know does nothing other then waste long shots.
Take all of the names that you've listed out and there's still an extremely viable second XI, plus more. Claiming that we didn't have anyone as good as King in reserve is pretty pointless, as nobody else did, either. We had five centre-halves who were all easily good enough to do a good job in the league and for us. How do we know that Dos Santos wasn't good enough for the Premier League? Redknapp never played him. He didn't play Pienaar either and he clearly is and was good enough. We had a very big squad with plenty of quality, but Redknapp alienated parts of it and didn't use other parts sensibly, then took his eye off the job and made some crazy decisions. Remember Stevenage away, for example?
