1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Are we playing the most optimal system?

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by Joe!, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. Saintalona

    Saintalona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,259
    Likes Received:
    356
    I actually like the system Poch plays as we need two defence midfield players to cover middle. When our central defenders are dragged out of position to cover our wing backs pushing forward in attack.
     
    #21
  2. San Tejón

    San Tejón Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    16,345
    Likes Received:
    21,495
    Could Vic have been made to look, a little better than he is, during the opening games of the season, owing to the settled team?
    Weren't we also missing Boruc and Lovren for a time when we had our "wobble"?

    Regarding the way the team plays, the tactics are, IMO, pretty good, but what we lack, all too often, is the killer, final ball.
    What I feel the team needs, is three more attacking players, to put pressure on Lambert, JRod and Lallana, but two of those players need to be similar to Lallana. Players that have the ability to beat opponents and play behind/around the main striker.
     
    #22
  3. saintgreg10

    saintgreg10 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,585
    Likes Received:
    90
    Best formation:

    Narrow width where the fullbacks are crucial and do the most running.

    RB----CB----CB----LB
    ----------DM----------
    ------CM-----CM------
    ----AM---------AM----
    -----------CF----------
     
    #23
  4. Che’s Godlike Thighs

    Che’s Godlike Thighs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    14,452
    Likes Received:
    23,997
    I think Wanyama could be a very good player. In another team. I don't doubt that he has strengths, but I think he would be better suited to a Stoke or West Ham. I have heard the 'early-season-form' argument a hundred times now. But for me it is not enough. Yes, we beat (a weakened) Liverpool away. Great result. But we also failed to beat Sunderland and West Ham at home!! We lost to Norwich away! In fact, we scored one goal in those three games. And while our defence was good (mainly because of Lovren), we rode our luck at times (Swansea hit the post 3 times, and totally dominated us). Wanyama never faced top-half opposition at St. Mary's (W.Ham, S'land, Swansea, Fulham, Hull). In fact, against Hull, Pochettino had to pull him off at half time cos he was having an absolute 'mare! Now, I won't deny that Wanyama was effective in certain games (Man Utd, Arsenal), but he was new, ie; relatively unknown, and perhaps intimidating. However, I really don't think it will take long before other managers begin to work out how to play against him, because, and we all know this, he is not a great technical footballer. You saw how Sunderland knew to press him yesterday. Earlier in the season players would stand off him, but they won't do that any more once he has been found out. He is not as good as the other midfielders we have, because he can't do the one-touch passing thing like they can. He needs several touches, too much time, and what's more, as I have said before, he simply doesn't have the hunger of Cork. As soon as our centre backs have the ball, Cork is demanding it from them. He barks for it. Watch him in our next game. In comparison Wanyama just wanders around waiting for the ball to come to him.

    Anyway, the argument is rather invalid, because we simply don't know how well we would have done in those same fixtures had Jack Cork been playing instead, and vice-versa for when Cork was playing instead of Wanyama. We are on a fantastic run of form now without Wanyama, so surely this should lead people to think that it wasn't necessarily because of Wanyama that we were getting good results early on?!?!?! After all, we are clearly capable without him!!

    My argument is not that he is a bad player. It's just that a) he doesn't suit our system, b) he is not as good as our other midfielders.


    Sorry to go on, but...


    ...finally, a little story; I've been working close to a petroleum university for the last two years (in eastern China). A lot of the foreign students come from Africa/Midd.East etc. As such, in the foreigner bars, I've grown to be close friends with a lot of guys from these parts, and in particular a lovely, football-obsessed Kenyan named Ishmael. He was an Arsenal fan, but he just loved the game, and promised that every guy in Kenya was a mad as he was. So imagine my joy when Southampton, my team, signed the first ever Kenyan to play in the Premier League!! I was imagining Wanyama to have the status of a demi-god in his homeland. I rushed to my friend to get his thoughts. But his response stunned me. He told me he didn't like him, and he said it was the same for a lot of people in Kenya. "Why?" I asked him. He answered simply, that he is not a very good footballer. In fact some of his very words were, "He is clumsy. Just like a damn gorilla on the pitch!" It stuck with me to this day, and perhaps that is why I view Wanyama through different eyes than yourselves.
     
    #24
  5. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    57,300
    Likes Received:
    40,066
    Don't apologise for 'going on' it is how a discussion works.

    I can only come back and suggest you should work in politics :cheesy: how you can ignore the argument you have heard 100 times about the first 10 games and then simply ignore it and brush it aside is quite amusing really. It shows a lack of counter to the debate and suggests there is not one.

    No-one can counter the facts that we were the best defensive team in the league in those games. The draws against Sunderland and West Ham. you should be moaning about Adam, Rickie, Gaston, Jayrod, Davies, JWP and any of the other more forward playing players who didn't score us a goal or create us a goal in those games. Vic did his job in those games with Lovren, Jose, Artur etc, the others didn't. A weakened Liverpool? not by much.

    For me the discussion can't go anywhere because you can't see his value even when the facts suggest it is a huge value.

    Should England have played Nobby Stiles in the World Cup Final? Was he one of the best 11 players in the country or in his position? It is about the pieces in the puzzle and back in that run when Vic was getting stick, I said then that we would miss him if he wasn't there; I believe we have. The hard thing is that Cork over the last few games has been excellent and I am not saying he should be dropped. I am saying that the period without Vic playing we didn't look anywhere near as strong defensively. Lovren played a part in that too, but so did Vic.
     
    #25
  6. ImpSaint

    ImpSaint Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    8,293
    Likes Received:
    2,112
    I don't think anyone is ignoring the comments (surprisingly by many many people) about the first 10 games. As stated above there were a number of first unavoidable team changes at that time. Wanyama getting injured, Boruc getting injured, The defence being unsettled through injuries and sickness.

    People cannot keep on suggesting we played so well and conceded so few in those first 10 games because Wanyama was there. It was quite obviously due to a multitude of things.

    Other possibilities are that we then ran into a run of harder games. We ran into a cluttered Christmas schedule which may impact harder on our squad due to the fitness levels required to play our (Poch's) system. Maybe there were rumblings in the squad r.e. Osvaldo which were causing problems back then. Maybe we weren't doing brilliantly because we were trying to 'blood' our new striker. Maybe we had the run of the ball in the first 10 more than the last 10.

    There could be many many reasons why we did well in the first 10 compared to the next 10 but you can't just pick Wanyama being present / not present as being THE causative factor. Thats just making a false correlation.

    On my part I think Wanyama has struggled all season to do what we require of him but yes he is 22 and has never played at this level before. We have seen smaller clubs than Celtic have great days in the CL against great clubs. He may improve with experience both in terms of age and games but at the moment he is just not up to speed and hasn't been since the start barring a few 'stand out moments'. By that I mean it is spectacular when his power comes to the fore and I think many forget about the moments he loses the ball or plays a wayward 'chip' too short.

    At the same time I think Cork's speed of thinking and Schneiderlin's grace often leads to people forgetting when they are dispossessed or have bad moments. However even MOTM performance by the like of Messi or Ronaldo (or Lallana ;) ) will also include moments of failure that people forget about.

    But so far this season Cork and Morgan have outperformed Wanyama. And it is quite visible.

    I now await stats that show Wanyama has scored more goals than Suarez and is as good as Hazard and Oscar combined.

    Jury is out for me.
     
    #26
  7. Saintjoey

    Saintjoey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,694
    Likes Received:
    1,207
    I see what you're saying with this formation but would suggest that Lambert won't be leading the line next season. I think our current formation works well, especially because it's relatively fluid (e.g. whoever's closest presses the ball and whoever spots space has permission to surge into it).

    I think our current formation would work well with a more complete forward who has pace running in behind and the burst to allow him to get to the near post when our full backs get to the byeline. I think (we all agree that) this is the most crucial position for us to strengthen in and, with the addition of an all round, pacy, intelligent striker we could do great things in our current shape
     
    #27
  8. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    57,300
    Likes Received:
    40,066
    ImpSaint, first, my post was aimed at Black who admitted to hearing the argument about the first 10 games hundreds of times and chose to ignore it.

    If you read my last post this morning about Cork v Vic debate, http://www.not606.com/showthread.php/250239-Article-Sunderland-v-Saints-match-thread-Southampton-FC-Football?p=6100500#post6100500 you will see that I definitely do not say the first 10 games defensive performance is down to Vic; that is you putting a spin on my words. I go on to say that I can't tell you why or how, and that it is a combination of a lot of knock on affects that will be a part of it. The one fact that is there though and is undeniable is that for the first 10 games, we were a better defensive team. You can throw all other reasons at it, opposition played, etc, but we were the best defensive team in the league on goals conceded.

    I also explain that Jack is awesome and very important to us and that I don't know the answer, but the point of my continual defense of Vic (note defense, not saying he must play instead of Jack) is that so many people under value his importance to the team and mostly based on the fact he isn't the best passer of a football. That is so wrong in my opinion and shows a lack of understanding of the game and the puzzle of fitting the jigsaw pieces together and how they change with each piece that moves.

    Yes Impsaint, Cork and Morgan have performed great, but so has Vic (before his injury), just in a different way. Your comment about how it is clear they have performed better is subjective. They have passed better, but have they stopped the opposition better? Different horses for different courses and to cheekily steal your line, were the opposition different, etc, etc... ;)

    Your jury being out is fine; maybe some people see the value of that type of player quicker than others, regardless of how many times they pass poorly. Remember, I think he, Jack and Morgan are all hugely valuable and very important players. I am just trying to address the 'jury is out' (in your case) and those who think he is not good enough.


    Lff makes an excellent comment at the bottom of that thread.
     
    #28
  9. saintbaggs1885

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    379
    Likes Received:
    14
    Good shout

    Chile tend to play with the central striker (Suazo or Fernandez) dropping off into more of an attacking midfield role, while the to wide players (Sanchez, Vargas) get beyond him and attack the box. I think this would very much suit the way Lambert, Lallana and JRod's roles are evolving. I also like the idea of seeing Clyne and Shaw given even more attacking license from the full back position.

    If Pochettino does leave in the summer then Sampaoli would be very much at the top of my list to replace him.
     
    #29
  10. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2011
    Messages:
    56,929
    Likes Received:
    63,880
    Sorry to be a pedant, but something can't be "most optimal". It's either optimal or it isn't. Being most optimal is the inverse of being a bit pregnant.
     
    #30

  11. St. Luigi Scrosoppi

    St. Luigi Scrosoppi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    11,894
    Likes Received:
    8,296
    Is "most optimal" a tautology?
     
    #31
  12. St. Luigi Scrosoppi

    St. Luigi Scrosoppi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    11,894
    Likes Received:
    8,296
    Talk about timing I must have been writing my pedantic load of tripe as you were posting yours.
     
    #32
  13. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2011
    Messages:
    56,929
    Likes Received:
    63,880
    Quite frankly, I wondered what was taking you so long.
     
    #33
  14. ImpSaint

    ImpSaint Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    8,293
    Likes Received:
    2,112
    Yep I've only just read that one. When we lose match threads get too long so took ages to read it :)

    I think it's all a bit pointless referring to the first 10 games defensive record really because we can never get those games back and let Cork play in that same team against that same opposition.

    TBH I don't think Wanyama played that bad against Sunderland however that is comparing his performance to how the rest of the team played because noone was that good on the day.

    When I say Jury is out I also think you can include other players in there.

    I think in our system where our front 4 are so fluid we need more of a goal threat in Davis' position. Davis plays a blinder every game and his work rate cannot be questioned however that doesn't mean he is good enough.

    Also Ward-Prowse has moments but isn't really good enough to be more than a squad player at the moment.

    In my eyes (and I include Cork vs Wanyama) the only competition for a position in the first 11 at the moment is Clyne/Chambers. The rest I think are much better than their alternatives so when Davis is rightly the best in his position it shows we definitely need that goal threat No 10.

    In my eyes the reason that there isn't as much heated debate over the Clyne/Chambers is that they are both good and not leagues apart in terms of what they bring to the team nor how they perform for the team (I am in the Chambers camp on this one. lol) I don't see Wanyama as being close to Cork at all and to me hinders the way we play and the way Schneiderlin plays as well.

    You could argue that Schneiderlin has improved since Wanyama got injured. To me Schneiderlin and Cork play together as a pair. Schneiderlin and Wanyama seem to be a bit more eratic as a pairing so its not just about 1 player being better than another, its about 1 pairing being better than another.

    I was quite excited by the prospect of Wanyama when we signed him but I think it's fair to say he is not at the races (yet) in terms of what is needed in the Premier League.

    We definitely need to get a striker or 2 and a goal threat for AMC / No10 in the summer as well as a handful of Centre Backs if we want to move into the 6th/7th place. Maybe then we would have enough depth to put out competitive sides in the cup and not 'blag' that players were tired etc.

    Poch's system is fine. The problem is that we don't have enough players barr 10 or so that are good enough to play that system week in week out and expect to play well. Therefore we should sometimes do what Chelsea have done to us twice and change to something different when it isn't working even if it is a frowned on 4-4-2 like Chelsea did to us twice.
     
    #34
  15. fran-MLs little camera

    fran-MLs little camera Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    69,238
    Likes Received:
    24,818
    We are so short of players that I could pick the team...just toss a coin to decide between Chambers and Clyne and I would pick Cork. The Cork selection is based solely on the fact that he had played himself in over last few games...we can't afford to wait the number of games for Wanyama to get up to speed.
     
    #35
  16. fatletiss

    fatletiss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    57,300
    Likes Received:
    40,066
    Hee hee... this made me giggle. I'll use your opening words... "It's a bit pointless to use the opening 10 games....." should this end with " because they don't suit my position on the subject?" :cheesy: and then your next line says (in other words) "He was only ok against Sunderland because the others were bad" ... sort of tells me that he hasn't really got a chance with you at the moment. You may say the jury is out, but I think they may just be finishing their coffee before coming back in to declare him guilty in your eyes. The two things you mention in his favour, you immediately counter with a reason why it either wasn't down to him, or similar. Very harsh on him. I could suggest that we may not have won if Cork had played Saturday... we'll never know that either.

    The sentence I have highlighted in bold I just disagree with. I have seen plenty to show me he has what is needed in the Premier League. I've seen all but one home game and he did the job requested of him and contributed strongly to us being difficult to beat. I fear that your view is based on his misplaced passes, or his passes and touch compared to Cork and Morgan. Again different horses.

    I think the questions should be asked about the games from December onwards and why we didn't pick up many points or as many as we perhaps should have. I am not saying the answer is because Victor wasn't playing, I am asking why, what went wrong, why were we easier to score against? I would be interested to hear the suggestions as there will be many (like there are many answers to why we were so good defensively) but only someone who completely refuses to budge on their views will leave out a one of the answers as being Vic's defensive strength. I repeat it is not the answers, but it is potentially one of the puzzle pieces.

    You mention that it is possible that Cork/Morgan is a better pairing and they come as a pair; I think that is hugely disrespectful to both of them and in particular Morgan. He could play in any team and stand out. Of the games this season, the home game v Hull, stands our as a game where Morgan was exceptional. A hull team that no-one had beaten by more than a goal until that point. One could argue that Vic let him 'go and play'. I really do not agree that Morgan 'improved' once Vic was injured. It took them 2 or 3 games to understand each other (WBA/Sunderland/West Ham)

    My final line on this post is a reminder on my view: I am not championing Vic is better than Jack; I am defending Vic as a player and saying that I am surprised that so many people don't see his strengths and only focus on his negatives. I can only assume there is some prejudice there based on a preference for another player (in this case Cork)
     
    #36
  17. The Based God

    The Based God Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    20
    I dream of a team of Jack Corks
     
    #37
  18. MountwaySaint

    MountwaySaint Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    76
    Unless it was a cup game...<doh>
     
    #38
  19. Joe!

    Joe! Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    18,397
    Likes Received:
    71
    Technically true, yes, but one might use the technically incorrect "a bit pregrant" to describe someone who hasn't been pregnant for very long. Similarly I used "most optimal" to imply varying degrees of effectiveness. I don't want it to seem like I don't think the current formation is good at all. I definitely think it's up there among the most suitable shapes. Obviously I could have worded it better, but meh, it was late.
     
    #39
  20. St. Luigi Scrosoppi

    St. Luigi Scrosoppi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    11,894
    Likes Received:
    8,296
    Waffle. Waffle. Waffle. With your legal background you more than anyone else should understand the need for precision with the written word.
     
    #40

Share This Page