Wasn't provoking was just offering my opinion. I probably shouldn't have though, as I know this is a touchy subject, so il keep it to myself. Sorry to anyone who was offended.
Thanks Dave, i know you are not having a go. I would suggest it goes deeper than Redmen and infact touches all Scousers. If the clubs back off from this it is probably due to costs but the initiative is supporter driven not club.
I don't agree here, I remember a small child sat on a sofa of all things watching a football match wide eyed and dreaming as we went to penalties, his dad had long forgotten this little fellow seated a few feet away, sat there very sleepy and way past his bedtime but somehow still watching. Emotions were high the tension unbelievable and the noise unbearable as he occasionally glanced at his dad who stood there at times screaming, at times in despair and at times in jubilation. I don't remember him throughout that game except at one moment as Andriy Shevchenko stepped up to take a penalty I looked across to my left at the very moment that this 5 year old child covered his eyes and buried his head in the sofa. 5 years old and he just couldn't look I still wonder at this moment. He didn't see the penalty, he just heard me and he earned his place to stand or sit among us at that point.
A magic moment for him gonz. I think its a bit galling when tickets are as scarce as rocking horse ****e and the TV cameras at Wembley zoom in on kids paying more attention to their burgers and hand held games than the match.
Agree with you here Luv, my first game at OT was against Wolves (we won 4-0), my future brotherinlaw took me and i was passed from the middle of the crowd to the front of the section where i ended up sat on the roof of the radio broadcast shed (think it was the stretford paddock) with five or six other kids (some of whome were Wolves supporters). I have never doubted my allegience ever since.
In his defence, it was late; he'd probably had a few; and he apologised quickly. But I agree with you
Interesting debate though I think things have moved on a bit since Hillsborough. Fundamentally the ticketing system has changed and there is an awareness of exactly how many people can fit into each part of the ground. Standing itself obviously is not the issue its the density of peeps that counts. Remove seats from an area in the ground and only allow 10 tickets to be available for that terrace and it would look ridiculous, be completely uneconomical, but have zero chance of creating a crush situation; try and put 10,000 in that area and we know the potential consequences. Plenty of studies and trials have been done, in large part because of Hillsborough, regarding safe densities of people in confined areas and computerised ticketing can ensure this is adhered to. Obviously the positioning of crush barriers within any area of terracing is also crucial but I believe well understood. The potential dangers of getting it wrong are also understood and there is far more awareness of all involved. While the numbers that can stand in an area will definitely work out to be more than those that can currently sit in the same space, by what factor I don't know. Very unscientifically would it be fair to say that for each current two rows of seats you could get three people standing comfortably behind each other, that's quite a large uplift factor but as mentioned earlier the data from studies is available and would give safe ratios. A different but significant question is why would you want to do this. Are the clubs thinking this will give more atmosphere to stadia that are becoming more corporate than traditional. Prices dictate who would fill these extra places and in general any increased capacity from standing will not be available at significantly reduced pricing. Not sure this could be allowed for clubs without modern grounds and ticketing systems and not sure it is worth doing anyhow, So I agree with the Hillsborough families but for different reasons than safety.
The trouble was never the terrace, it was the way we were treated like cattle. The police treated all fans like holigans and forced them into a bottleneck that they couldn't control. Then they just opened some gates and forced us to move without any proper marshalling. Id love standing back, and agree with TAC that with modern ticket systems, respect for fans and marshalling, that would never happen again.
In any crowded venue there must be an easy escape route. Being fenced in stopped an overspill onto the pitch that would have alleviated the problem. The new German standing system has meshing too which fences fans in but I think I read it has some sort of system to raise it in an emergency.
This says it all. I have undying respect for the families, but the root cause of Hillsborough, as identified by the Taylor Report, was not terracing per se but shambolic, evasive policing which was totally unable to adapt, despite training and have contingencies for what actually happened; and a totally inappropriate venue that didn't even have a valid safety certificate, and a governing body that chose the said unsuitable venue based upon its old boy network. All those factors (bar the ridiculous FA) should now have been overcome, and if the police are unable to police matches with all modern technology at their disposal, then private stewarding should be considered. Perhaps the HSE should select and audit venues directly? Anyone but the FA. If they come back, Liverpool will be the last team to have it though, I suspect.
You have just shone a light on exactly why I don't want to see standing again. For it to be safe all of the IFs that you highlight have to be in place and actually work. For me that is too many IFs to risk peoples lives.
