Pour Moi has probably won, only a mediocre, Derby but time may prove him to be a very good horse. He beat them very impressively with a legal prolonged finishing kick and thosen behind will not be beating him anytime soon! Those writing him off for the Arc against the older horses, I would advise to tread carefully, I have a feeling he may prove a very, very good Derby winner.
if you need a little help on deciding ,try to interpret the times of the oaks, coronation and derby. obviously the derby was the fastest race in 2m34.54 .the ground was slightly faster plus it was the original course,on the friday the dolling of of the rails does mean they go around 40yds at best guess longer in the oaks/coronation stakes.this extra distance though occurs in mid race and the distance once into the straight is the same on both days. the pace was awful in the oaks.,hence why the time was around 4 & 1/2 secs slower than the coronation.dancing rain though did finish quite well and finished just under 2 secs quicker compared to the coronation once in the home straight in 37 secs. thats how slow they really did go in the oaks thus they had so much energy left for the last 3rd of the race. the pace was better in the coronation although no more then even at best.but they seemed to pick it up earlier compared to the oaks.dandino hit the home straight in front,and it took around 39 secs when SNA crossed the line,but SNA was behind him by a couple of lengths so clocked about 38 1/2 secs at best guess in the home straight and he seemed to make massive inroads inside the final furlong as he got unbalanced for a while as well before he could pick up again. the derby seemed moderate for the first minute (4 1/2 furlongs roughly) but memphis belle did start to go and then was around 5 lengths clear and seemingly the chasing pack were now going quicker as well.at first por moi was around 10 lengths of the pace and probably around 15 when memphis belle quickened.from the home straight it took 39 secs from the leader to the winner,similar to the coronation cup race.however as pour moi was 10 lengths behind once in the home straight.he then clocked 37 secs by the line. so all 3 races were not a great early pace,with the oaks the worst and they only seemed to pick it up in the last 2/3rds.the derby went quicker generally ,although you have to take into account the slightly shorter distance,but from the home straight,you can see pour moi as produced a similar 37 sec as dancing rain,the only difference is he had to do that of a pace that started to increase faster way earlier on then dancing rain race did. to me pour moi is a great derby winner.the home straight of longchamp which is around 3 furlongs and slightly downhill going into it,you need a horse who can produce at least 35 secs for the arc ,hes done 37 secs of slightly longer then 3 furlongs and with a better pace then the oaks/coronation(although ive stated the SNA in the coronation had a more interrupted run in the home straight then pour moi and especially dancing rain)it was visually impressive and backed up by the sections of how fast he was really going once the jockey asked him to go.
beeforsalmon, there will be a maximum field in the Arc on October 2nd as usual, so exaggerated waiting tactics would mean that Pour Moi would have to be exceptional - like Dancing Brave - to win from the back, as traffic trouble is almost guaranteed at Longchamp.
I agree that traffic trouble will be a massive problem for Pour Moi at Longchamp. There is little doubt that he will go there with a chance but i think the current 4/1 is a bit of a joke to be honest. I am still in the So You Think camp provided he is allowed to take his chance. But with Pour Moi confirming himself a very useful animal it might be that Coolmore decide to restrict SYT to the top 10f races. They certainly have an abundance of talent for the 12f contests with Pour Moi, St Nicholas Abbey, Await The Dawn etc, all looking like Group 1 contenders.
I doubt the exaggerated waiting tactics such as those used in The Derby will be employed on Pour Moi in the Arc. At 5/1 he's pretty much what you'd expect him to be at this stage but the stand out ante-post wager looks to be Baraan at 14/1, who must have lost at least a dozen or more lengths at the start of the "French Derby" today but made up a lot of ground to finish 3rd.
I think the winner is being harshly treated, particularly by the official handicapper who is proposing a provisional rating of 122. The way Por Moi came from last to first to run his rivals ragged down the home straight actually reminded me of Conduit winning the opening race on Derby day a few years ago. OK, Conduit hit the front sooner and went on to win about 6 lengths if I remember correctly, but for Pour Moi to win from where he did makes him a serious horse in my book and I'm sure he will confirm this, wherever he goes next. Good Derby or bad? For me there were the usual hard luck stories, the usual nags who shouldn't have been there, and at the end they were strung out like washing behind the first half dozen. I still firmly believe you need to be there or thereabouts coming round Tattenham corner to win the Derby (hence I rate Pour Moi's performance very highly) and I thought Johnny Murtagh gave Native Khan a lovely ride, in the box seat throughout. I think Moore had Carlton House way too far back, and also the young lads on the AOB "outsiders" did a stirling job - much better than the chap on Seville.
I don't think there will be a big field for the Arc this year, last year the race was wide open with no real top quality contender on form, so it attracted a massive field which resulted in loads of traffic problems, and it was as much down to the brilliance of Ryan Moore as it was the ability of Workforce that won him the race. A low draw is so vital in the Arc, that you can as good as draw a line through any horse drawn in double figures, so a big field ruins the race! This year I can see being different, as the likes of So You Think and last years winner Workforce, should scare away most of the weaker competition! Those saying he will need to have speed like Dancing Brave to win the Arc coming from the back of the field, well Pour Moi came from further back than Dancing Brave did when he was narrowly beaten in the Derby, though it has to be said that this years Arc is shaping up to be a far stronger contest that the 86 equivalent
king shergar "this years Arc is shaping up to be a far stronger contest that the 86 equivalent" No wonder you were laughing when you wrote this. I will take this statement as an intended wind up.
Pour Moi; Workforce & So You Think are certainly deserved joint favourites. Pour Moi's turn of foot was electric - but how good was the opposition? Time will tell. Looks like he'll be rested until the Autumn now so the Arc could be his first run against the older horses? So You Think has eased to two wins against nothing brilliant but Bart Cummings has said he's better than anything over here! Next week the opposition should be a little better in the Prince Of Wales but will it really be top draw? No idea what Workforce's plans are....King George & the straight to the Arc? Is he likely to run at Ascot next week? St Nicholas Abbey seems to have come back strong - whether he could be an outsider for the Arc time will tell - possibly the King George next for him!
The theoretical plan for Workforce may revolve around the Prince Of Wales’ Stakes, the Eclipse Stakes, the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud (26th June) and the King George according to Teddy Grimthorpe. If the ground is a key factor then the trip to France looks most likely as it will not be fast at Saint-Cloud. As Khalid Abdulla already has a couple of other ten furlong contenders such as Byword and Twice Over, placing Workforce may become quite difficult. Over the weekend the bookies made a killing on the Aidan O’Brien to win the Oaks or the Derby bets (once again). I do not suppose that they will be offering any “Aga Khan to win the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe” odds given the strong hand that he currently appears to hold. In the older division he has Behkabad and Sarafina still in training, I think Baraan was the best horse at Chantilly on Sunday but lost the race at the gate and by October he could have four or five possibles for the race. As they would be coupled on the PMU, now is the time to start assessing them individually at British bookies’ ante post prices.
Eddieveee....Now do be serious, please tell me exactly what made that race so strong, we had 2 Derby winners in Sharastani and Bering, neither of those 2 won a race in all aged company, so were clearly average Derby winners, or Triptych a fillie who was beaten 4 lenghs in the Oaks. Get real my friend! Compare those 3 to So You Think and Workforce. Workforce who won the Arc last year, and So You Think who dominated Australian racing and is conidered as one of the best horses to ever race In Australia, and that's without knowing how good the Epsom and Chantilly Derby winners are, and it wouldn't take alot for them to be as good as Bering and Sharastani! As I've said before this year is a vintage year for flat racing, 1986 wasn't
Triptych was a great mare, to reference her by simply saying, she was beaten 4 lengths in the Oaks is a disgrace. She is one of the great mares of all time and won 9 Group 1s many of which in open company. Dont forget who beat her in the Oaks, Oh So Sharp, the horse who Steve Cauthen rated the best animal he ever sat on in Europe. They dont make mares like Triptych these days. The 1986 Arc is without doubt the strongest Arc field assembled in the last 30 years, the strength in depth of top class animals has not been matched nor has the performance by the winner, Dancing Brave.
Extract from ilipedia: "Triptych (1982-1989) was a Thoroughbred filly racehorse known for her toughness who went on racing until the age of six, travelling around the world always taking on the very best. Bred in Kentucky, she was a descendant through both her sire and dam of the great runner and sire, Nearco. She was consigned to the 1983 Keeneland Sales summer yearling auction where she was purchased for US$2.15 million by an agent for Alan Clore. Triptych ran 41 times; of those, 12 were Pattern races, including nine Group 1 events. She was placed another 19 times, all but one of them in Group 1 races, and her worldwide earnings amounted to more than £1,500,500. Her first big win came in the 1984 Prix Marcel Boussac, when she was trained by David Smaga in France, but she moved to David O'Brien in Ireland for her second season when she became the first filly to win the Irish 2,000 Guineas at the Curragh and was runner-up in the Epsom Oaks to Oh So Sharp. At age four in 1986, Triptych won the Champion Stakes and La Coupe, by which time she had joined Patrick Biancone. She was placed in the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Eclipse Stakes and Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. In 1987 she excelled herself, winning the Coronation Cup (which she also won in 1988), Prix Ganay, Champion Stakes (both English and Irish versions) and the International Stakes. She was sent to race in the United States where she made one start at Churchill Downs in Kentucky and was then retired to broodmare duty on November 7, 1988. Sent to stud in 1989, she died as a result of a freak accident when she ran into a stud farm vehicle. She was in foal to Mr. Prospector at the time."
Eddieveee.....I can assure you if Triptych raced either So You Think or Workforce she would be easily delt with, if Triptych is the form marker for the 86 Arc, then it wasn't a strong race, trust me! Triptych was a very good mare but she was no superstar
Shergar, your comments are bordering on absurd. Triptych is not the only marker for the race, even though a 9 time Group 1 winner and 18 times Group 1 placed horse tends to be a reasonable enough marker in anyone's books. Your sugesting that horses from different era's would be dealt with easily tells me that I should not trust you. The race also boasted winners of the English, Irish, French and German Derby's in Sharistani, Bering and Acatenango. Bering won the French equivelant by 4 lengths in record time. Acatenango had went a european joint record of 13 runs unbeaten winning umpteen Group 1s including the Grand Prix De Saint Cloud. Darara the Prix Vermille winner, Shadari, Dihistan, Saint Estephe. You will not see a stronger Arc in your life and I can assure you of that. So You Think and Workforce have beat nothing of note yet. Workforce beat a pacemaker in the Derby and we all know, times mean very little in Europe. Harbinger beat him 10 lengths in the King George. So You Think looks like he could be special but has still to prove it and its unlikely he will ever be regarded as highly as Dancing Brave.
Triptych was a tough top class horse! Just as easy to say Workforce was beaten 18 lengths in a King George if you want to see the glass half empty!!
Triptych was no better than the likes of Ouija Board, and we all seen what happened to Ouija Board when she ran in the Arc, judging the form through a very good consistant mare is ridiculous, and that's all Triptych was, very good and very consistant, she was no superstar, ran in loads of G1s got beat in loads, and won a few of the weaker ones that's all, she was beaten further in the Oaks than she was the Arc, don't you think that telss you everything about the form of the race! Or if you try and use Sharastani or Bering as form boosts then forget it, they were poor Derby winners
Shergar for some strange reason does NOT like Dancing Brave.And has berated him and the horses he faced for as long as i remember. The only great horses in his lifetime appear to be the horses he actually likes.If he doesnt like them he generally disparages them and berates their achievements...strange fella
The reason he dislikes Dancing Brave is because he was put up as a better horse than Shergar back on 606 - simple as! Just go with the flow and don't get too wound up at it...this time last season Workforce came in for the same!
