So after the week that was to define our season did precisely that (for all the wrong reasons) I thought that there is hope yet for LFC to improve on where it's at. an honest appraisal of our squad should highlight several weaknesses and if we take off the red tinted glasses they are reasonably obvious. That said I don't need to enter a great debate on such things right now, instead I thought I'd highlight a few turning points in our clubs recent history where the finger could be pointed at changes made that genuinely improved our lot. I highlighted this briefly last night but here's a fuller look. Roy Evans led Liverpool to a whole one League cup in his time in the 1990s but people did love some of the football, players like Fowler and McManaman grace the pitch and in 1998 a wonder kid emerged with a bang in the form of Owen. Back in 1998 all LFC could do was finish 3rd and not qualify for the then 2 placed champions league. We did nothing in the cups as per usual and the club sought a solution. Our stunningly stupid Owners and CEO partnership that would one day go on to nearly ruin the club took the decision that seeing charlton once had two managers this would be ideal and brought in Gerard Houllier to work with Evans rather than simply move the guy aside. The experiment lasted until November when Evans resigned, leaving the French man in sole command..... Result? A lowly 7th in the league, barley even played in the cups and a changing of the guard in the dressing room became inevitable. Great... well done Mr Moores and Parry, the very year that the CL expanded to 3 places you destroyed our chances of cementing that place and handed it to chelsea who took it and ran with it spending the money wildly it must be said but it brought them their initial success... however that's not the story here. No its 1998/99 closing with redknapp, mcmanaman ince, babb, james and the like leaving. So what happened? did we slide down the league into mid table mediocrity under the terrible Frenchman who never did anythign (bar lead us to glory and lyon too... yet another side story there) No we improved.... In the league we scraped to 4th, leeds spent madly to get their famous 3rd place... so thanks again mr moores that's more CL we missed out on due to your incompetence... that was uefa qualification but again the cups were disasterous. The squad picture I think is the key thing... what did houllier do to make the change? Why did this become the basis for some future good times? simple... he bought reasonably well.. not amazingly but REASONABLY Sami Hyypiä £2,600,000 Titi Camara - Free Sander Westerveld - £4,000,000 Stéphane Henchoz - £3,500,000 Dietmar Hamann - , £8,000,000 VladimÃr Å micer - £4,200,000 Emile Heskey - £11,000,000, Erik Meijer - free now i'm sorry but back in 2000 we spend what... 33.1million pounds and look in 9.5million having sold quite a few... and mcamanman left us on a free... a net spend of a huge (for the time 23,6million) What was truely key? 4 players... hyppia, henchoz, hamann and heskey... some might even argue he should have only signed players starting with a H. These 4 players plus the addition of one young man called Gerrard transformed LFC over the next couple of years. This 4th place was then transleated into one of the most amazing seasons of our clubs history in 2001.. i need not detail that. ................................................................................................................................................................................. Now step forward to Houllier 2004. an under performing side still claiming 4th but loaded with misfits like diao and smicer and diouf, cheyrou and the like. I don't really need to name the players but he had Finnan, Riise, hyppia, owen, gerrard, hamann and others still playing Moores again stepped in and this time hired a man after breaking the Barca/Real deadlock in spain. the result? 5th in the league, yet again a step down but Rafa knew how important sometimes the one off day was so his team reached a carling cup final to loose to chelsea but of course the main sotry is the fairy tale of istanbul. But why did this happen? Luck? maybe. just look again at Rafa's first signings. Djibril Cissé £14,500,000 (already agreed by houllier) Josemi £2,000,000 Antonio Núñez £1,500,000 Xabi Alonso £10,700,000 Luis GarcÃa £6,000,000 Mauricio Pellegrino Free Fernando Morientes £6,300,000 Scott Carson £1,000,000 Again not great was it, in fact it was WORSE than houlliers first season but the two stand outs in alonso and garcia played a huge part in the champions league that houllier had qualified for. a 2006 fa cup followed and another CL final before moores put his foot so far in it he'll nver be forgiven. ................... So why am I boring the pants off you with this. Wellllllllll........ IT CAN TURN AROUND. Rodgers first year is pathetic but no more pathetic than houllier's. Rodger has spend a similar amount of money 12 years on, he's had mixed results too Fabio Borini £11,000,000 Joe Allen £15,000,000 Oussama Assaidi £2,500,000 Daniel Sturridge £12,000,000 Philippe Coutinho £8,000,000 48.5mil spent maybe 10mil recouped depending on who you believe on the disastrous aquliani. So.... where's the guy to put your hand on heart and hey hey here's the guy who's going to improve us... the hyppia or hamann... the alonso or garcia. Well perhaps they've not arrived yet or perhaps they were always there to begin with.... (suarez, lucas, and the like) For me I have to say you only need look back to line two of this article and see that I think now in summing up that if our next buys are quality and they plug the gaps that are obvious that we can improve and we can go and win things even with questions about FSG and Rodgers. Just imagine our current squad with just two players added, a young sami hyppia at the back and dare i say it an real midfielder like Alonso. Just think on how many points we chucked away through being unable to mark from set pieces or tactical ineptitude leaving gaps at the back... 7th doesn't need to mean everyone leaves, and to expand that stars leaving doesn't mean we fall apart either. Lets not kid ourselves the moneys always been there but we've shot ourselves in the foot more times than not and allowed things to degrade chasing risks to catch up. This time round we've a squad of hugely young players and a lot of them that are just crying out of additions to toughen them up. Either FSG are spoofers or the long game will pay off, but history shows even Moores could get it right sometimes... THERE IS HOPE, just admit that agger and skertl are not up to it, admit the midfield while good isn't all that and see that just a couple of additions should make us a side of men not mouses. Roll on 2013/14 I say. All I've got is hope in my heart but I'm not letting it go.
Much like you said Houllier inherited a certain Steven Gerrard (Jamie Carragher too), Rodgers has a fair few quality youngster too in Kelly, Wisdom, Sterling, Suso etc. Only time will tell if they can have an impact like the aforementioned Couldn't agree more with this bit... I think we do over rate our own players. I always rated Agger and hoped that he would some day kick the injuries to the curb giving him a longer run in the side, I can't say I am over the moon with the end result, I think I prefer the cameos But in all seriousness, I do think we can improve at CB. People know what I think of Skrtel already. We need a Hyypia type, dominant in the air.
Good read MITO, I actually read it all. Lacking bullet points I may add. My only concern is that we always seem to be 1 or 2 players short. Although in recent seasons it has been 3/4 or 5 which I guess is an improvement. At the moment, we seem to be pretty good in attack. We have scored more than anyone else in 2013 including the 0 in the WBA game. Our problem is defence, as you pointed out a Hyppia and bossing Midfielder. I personally think we have decent defenders, but for some reason we aren't defending well. A lot of it is when we are pushing high up the pitch and get caught out. But when we play the better sides and sit back we look incredibly shakey. To me it's down to coaching, but a leader at the back to replace Carra is a must.
A sensible look at things. We could also look at the signings so far and say that with the age of all these players they have a chance to improve.
Bump. When someone goes to the effort of posting a serious article it should get more replies even if it's just a quick thanks or "good read" even a stop talking bollox would be nice. I know we have a laugh on here and long may that continue but lets reply to the more serious threads aswell. Rant over. Just going to work on that long article I was planning to post.
yeah, i don't think its not that we are pushed too far up but that we over commit in desperation as a game goes on. What i mean is when we've scored first we've not done this and frankly in the 2-2 draws v "big teams" we've been falling abck TOO far and relying on defence. niether is right. I just think hyppia was a guy who go it sorted and knew his strengths and played to them.. it suited carragher to sweep up behind him... same for alonso his ball skills were matched by tactical awareness totally. lucas is not fit enough yet to match the work rate he had and do the leg work. In sort I am saying all it takes is a couple of successful buys like sturridge to transform our outlook. I'm not saying next year not championship. Just if you look at it we've been able to come up to the 4th place mark despite cronic stupidity form moores in the past. I'd love to think we could add a couple of players who are like say kompany or dembele ofr instance I'd have just loved us to have moved for javi martinez long before now as i think we'd have got him for meireles moeny back then (more lunacy) The thing that frustrates me is a player like coates could have been a hyppia but he looks like he's not bothered to learn the english game, language or go to the gym and work on upper body power. Here's hoping rodgers can do less borini and sahins and more of these latter signings now his feet are under the scouting table at anfield. Borini, allen and sahin all stand out as oh CRAP what do i do type of singings just like some of rafa's did form spain like josemi and pelligrino. If rodgers can pick a better player than williams form swansea as his CB and he's a 10 year legend fair play to him!
I'm actually quite proud of my posts today. Not only have they been on topic but the content has been of the highest quality.
Good read. It shows that most managers 'cock-up' in the transfer market and Rodgers may have done but I still think its early days. After all Henderson and downing are now starting to establish themselves after nearly 2 seasons , so I think Borini and Allen should be given more time. Assaidi..no idea what has happened to him but Sturridge looks a great buy and on yesterday's showing,so does courthino. Rafa certainly had his share of 'dummies' none more so then aqualani and hollies had a whole collection of them ESP the 'new zidane' that was Bruno cheyrou! I think 4 quality players max..another forward, either winger or a striker,a dominant centre back, a powerful midfield player and maybe a keeper depending on reinas situation. I truly think we are heading in the right direction,when we get it right we look as good as anyone. We just need that experience and consistency to push into the top 4. I've said before that most of our squad match up to uniteds except in key areas (Ferdinand/vidic) and up front (RVP ,Rooney Hernandez,) sure we have Suarez and Sturridge but as soon as one of those is not playing we look toothless and there is no one on the bench to bring in to change a game. But hope indeed,this summer will be so very vital for our progress.
thanks... i thought i'd be the one to inject something remotely positive into the season. If you look back over wiki for Liverpool FC season 1994-1995 and so forth you can take a look look at all our seasons and see the rubbish we had to put up with at times that makes this season look like one thats ok the low end but not totally out of the ordinary for a transition. It was funny seeing how houllier really did have it that easy at the start with the leavings but i was amazed how a few players made such a big difference to us... I just think maybe a changing of a few areas people assume are ok would not go astray. For the record i would EITHER drop agger or skertl depedning on the side the new CB played on and focus them on going and doing a carra role. I think skertl is quite good sweeping up but is not good at organising. I feel agger is ok at that but his set piece stuff has me losing patience cos he's not in the team to pass it about he's in there to stop goals. hell razor ruddock would bloody do.
thanks... i thought i'd be the one to inject something remotely positive into the season. If you look back over wiki for Liverpool FC season 1994-1995 and so forth you can take a look look at all our seasons and see the rubbish we had to put up with at times that makes this season look like one thats ok the low end but not totally out of the ordinary for a transition. It was funny seeing how houllier really did have it that easy at the start with the leavings but i was amazed how a few players made such a big difference to us... I just think maybe a changing of a few areas people assume are ok would not go astray. For the record i would EITHER drop agger or skertl depedning on the side the new CB played on and focus them on going and doing a carra role. I think skertl is quite good sweeping up but is not good at organising. I feel agger is ok at that but his set piece stuff has me losing patience cos he's not in the team to pass it about he's in there to stop goals. hell razor ruddock would bloody do.
I'd also say one thing.. pointing at these eras doesn't mean i expect us to be challenging for the title as in "next year blah blah" what i am saying though is sometimes a couple of changes can make a difference and push us up closer the sharp end. 7th to 4th is actually fairly easy its 12 points lo.. think of all the goals we've leaked form set pieces or failed to stick in like west brom... equally spurs could add a couple more and challenge for 3rd the real story must be options, utd have had 4 strikers for years... cheslea have a flop and sold sturridge for the crock ba... not enough and it shows.. city have had issues and sold thier 4th guy now... arsenal have struggled for one let alone 4 sometimes and spurs have only defoe... Its no wonder utd score more and jsut get by at the back. I think solve the leask, build goals scoring capability and jobs a good un in this league. sorry daniel agger but if you would just learn to be a fouling git....
Thanks if that compliment was for me. You are right in the fact that if we hadn't cocked up in 3/4 matches we wouldn't be far away now. We,as supporters, must learn not to over react to setbacks in the same way it's important to not get too excited about performances like yesterday. Sure I get down when we lose and celebrate when we win but they should be taken in context. At the beginning of the season Rogers said that it was a long job, progress would take time and there would be setbacks along the way. But I can see progress ,I can see a stronger squad developing and a more attacking style which is ,usually,good to watch. He has been spot on with his comments. I am not sure why he has so many doubters as we all knew what he inherited and he was bringing his own ideas which take time to establish. FSG have also gotten a lot of grief on here but ,as far as I can see, they have backed both Kenny and BR with quite a lot of money. Ok the signings haven't all worked out but as we said previously not everyone will. Even fergie has his fair share of howlers. Finally I would ask everyone to get behind everyone at the club because I feel next year will see a big step up for us and really get into a top 4 challenge. If at the end of 2013/2014 we are still midtable,well then it's time to be pissed off.
You spent a lot of research on the players - good work, young man - but haven't really looked at the perfomance records of the managers. Rodgers is the worst we've had from Shanks onwards. So maybe you look back at the records of Skrtel and Agger and admit Rodgers isn't up to it.
That didn't work then.....have you looked at their records after 26 games? That would be interesting.
muppet i honestly stayed away from the rodgers topic as you'll notice both seasons i mentioned saw managers come in. I looked at rodgers for 6 months and this shelvey thing in particular vexed me. i don't think he's delivered anything he said he would try to bar knocking it about at the back. As for skertl and agger... well i hve to say i've nothing against either but i go by two things, players have destroyed skertl in the air and agger keeps letting guys block him off and let team mates have free headers. I think a neutral observer might just say LFC at the back are not as good as they think they are.... I just think back to seeing smai come in after rafa decided he was for the scrap heap and struggle for one game ebfore solving it for himself and just going and attacking every ball up the pitch. i just can't see either skertl or agger be that guy ever and i nthe prem you need it. Think skertl could go do a carra in behind but agger isn't built that way is he... brave honest hard working... but not physically tough
The major problem with history is that it is written by the victors but remembered by the losers. So before we even attempt to learn from history we must first ensure who's version of it we are using Personally I see little point in looking at previous teams and managers as evidence either for or against the present players or manager. All of their situations are/were different and we will never know the whole truth about what they did and why. I don't know how much this will addd to the thread but I share the thoughts for what they are worth.
Good thread MITO! I agree that a couple of quality signings, ones that turn out to be inspiring, natural leaders if you like are whats needed right now. Put a player like Hyypia in this defence and it would make a massive difference. Defensively we were very good last season, and Agger and Skrtel formed a great partnership; however it appears this may have been a false dawn, or perhaps its the system we play? It does beg the question though, is Reina's form connected to the lack of leadership at the back? By this I mean he was a beast when he had Carra there to lead the others, perhaps the added pressure and leadership he has to perform accounts for some of his loss of form? I would like us to give Kelly a real good run at CB; I think he may be the leader or the inspiring figure that we can build from, we will never know if we don't give him a shot at it. Whilst your argument is sound, and there is a lot of great info here, you could equally argue the case for most clubs in the top 6 or 7. Two quality players at Arsenal, Everton, Spurs, Chelsea(up front), and they are also transformed. I agree that what we now need are quality players with the mentality and leadership of the Hyypia's and Carra's. We are going to have to be ruthless though; like I argued yesterday over Downing, whilst he has improved, he will never take us to the level we are aiming for, perhaps the same can be said of Skrtel, Borini, etc... we are going to have to start letting go of some of the favourites and let go of some of the emotional ties with some. What worries me though is that for all the talk of Rodger's and mentality, some of his own signings appear to be most vulnerable in this area? Not a dig so much, just an observation, he has a tough job on his hands, if he can get the right players with the leadership of the Kompany's of this world he may yet pull it off!
fordeck thats also a good point as today has absolutely no line to the past in terms of whats done today will not mirror the past. The first point as it was't like we didn't finish 7th before and couldn't recover. The other point is we've always had moeny to spend from our own resources and have that now too. rodgers has had a shed load to spend compared to some. ergo i find hope exists.
