According to James Allen there are Rumours circulating that Mclaren have bought Cosworth - although they have been denied by Mclaren. Would tie in with potential engine changes for 2014. Thoughts?
Aren't Cosworth engines quite poor when compared to the likes of Renault, Mercedes etc? Would seem like a strange thing for McLaren to do IMO.
Unless they think it's a viable starting point for dvelopment, rather than having to build their own out of the box. Upgrading something average is far easier than building something that's instantly good.
I suppose it depends if the development Mclaren can bring would bring them on par. They also have a history of developing high output small engines and would find the F1 tech relative to road cars and hence benefit the Mclaren Road car department, which competes with Ferrari and Merc! Although quite old this is an interesting read and trys to outline the logic behind creating a british super brand. http://thejudge13.com/2012/10/22/mclaren-mercedes-divorce-and-cosworth-need-a-new-partner/ [h=2]McLaren-Mercedes divorce and Cosworth need a new partner.[/h]Even though the driver line up’s are mostly sorted for next year, I suspect there are a few exciting news stories yet to break. One of which I believe will be the split between Mercedes and McLaren. History of the partnership Having been out of F1 since 1954, Mercedes returned as an engine supplier in 1994, partnering with Sauber and then a year later began their 17 year relationship with McLaren. Since parting company with Honda in 1992, McLaren tried working with both Ford and Peugeot for 2 years with limited success. The 5 year relationship with Honda had delivered both WDC and WCC championships in 4 of those years – 8 titles in all and in just 5 years – 52 pole positions and 44 wins. In stark contrast Mercedes partnership with McLaren has delivered a mere 1 WCC (1998) and 3 WDC titles (Hakkinen 98,99 – Hamilton 08). In 1999 Daimler-Chrysler (owner of Mercedes-Benz) bought 40% of the McLaren F1 team with Ron Dennis and Mansour Ojjeh each retaining 30% and there was a shareholders agreements which locked Dennis and Ojjeh’s holding together so they could not be sold independently of one another. The arrangement followed a decision by DaimlerChrysler and McLaren Cars to jointly develop and produce the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren super sports car which was launched at the Frankfurt Motorshow in 2003 and was manufactured at the McLaren Technology Centre in Woking and at the company’s second production factory in Portsmouth, where the SLR carbon fibre bodyshells are built. The programme was planned for 7 years and around 3500 cars and the last cars were completed by December 2009, although McLaren produced 25 limited edition run of cars in 2011 called the ‘McLaren Edition’. Daimler-Chrysler appointed a new chairman in 2006 Dieter Zetsche, and he set about turning around the decade long slide in the company’s fortunes, completing the de-merger with Chrysler in 2007. On the horizon was the completion of the supercar programme and what may succeed it. At the time there was talk that Zetsche would expand McLaren production in the future and therefore attempt to buy out Dennis and Ojjeh so they could bring the technology in-house and have greater control of all projects. At that time Mercedes was the only major manufacturer involved in F1 that did not to control its works team and there is no doubt that McLaren performance in recent years has been generally disappointing, despite a strong World Championship challenge in 2005. The Ron Dennis’ Dream Yet Ron Dennis did not want to sell out to Mercedes, he wanted to turn McLaren into the British answer to Ferrari, so he and Ojjeh sold shares in McLaren the enterprise to investors from Bahrain in 2006, much to Mercedes displeasure. The spy-gate scandal of 2007 and Dennis’s announcement of McLaren Automotive (Dennis’ dream road car operation) in 2009 ultimately killed off the relationship as Mercedes realised that they had not only lost the chance to buy the McLaren Company but also gained a competitor in the sports car market. Mercedes immediately bought the Brawn GP team, which would be renamed Mercedes GP. It was announced that Dennis would acquire Mercedes shares in McLaren from them over a fixed period ending upon the completion of the contract in 2012. The deal is shrouded in mystery, but holding the upper hand on matters like – not allowing Mercedes to advertise the success of Brawn GP – insiders believe McLaren probably recovered its 40% stake in a deal that paid them something in the region of $300m and also provided F1 engines free of charge for the 2 years until the new engine regulations were due in 2013. This may sound wildly expensive for Daimler AG but they are the kind of figures that would be expected given the company’s apparent desire to get out of the arrangement. The windfall for McLaren would give them the money they needed to invest in their own engine programme so they can pursue the strategy of becoming a totally independent car manufacturer, promoting its products in Formula 1. Manufacturing Competitors To further the very British image for the McLaren sports car company Dennis’ wanted to create, they appointed of Jenson Button to race alongside Lewis Hamilton at the end of 2009. McLaren had examined the possibility of signing Button for 2008 but choose Heikki Kovalainen instead. The team also recruited British test drivers Gary Paffet and Oliver Turvey to continue the image. McLaren unveiled its first road car rival to Mercedes in September 2009 – the MP4-12C. Ricardo, a comapny specialising in engine and transmission design helped McLaren develop their first ever engine, the M838T. This is built at Ricardo’s new engine assembly facility in West Sussex but is badged ‘McLaren’. Some 1800 orders for the MP4-12C had been placed by the turn of 2012 and 18 out of a planned 34 worldwide dealers are now in place. McLaren Automotive has 2 more road car models in the pipeline. The baby McLaren which was originally expected to show this year but will now debut in Geneva 2013 along with the much awaited McLaren P1 Supercar. The baby McLaren is expected to compete with the long-standing Porsche 911 and Mercedes are expected to launch a new car in this space too. The McLaren P1 will challenge the Bugatti Veyron and Ferrari Enzo at the top of the price range. A spokesperson for McLaren said: “It is along the lines of the McLaren F1 so it will have a much higher retail value and we won’t make too many of them so it will be a real collector’s piece.” McLaren have said that it is planning to make the P1 the lightest supercar yet, with a target weight of 1,140kg. It will cost in the region of $1.6m and is said to be able to reach a top speed of around 260mph. The final divorce and McLaren’s future Of course Mercedes had the last laugh on the division of the spoils. Following certain voices of dissent within F1, the new engine regulations have been delayed until 2014, this means McLaren will be forced to pay Mercedes for their F1 engines next year. There was no real option to change engine supplier for just one year as the cars’ specifications as set out in the FIA regulations are very similar to this year. Then of course Mercedes pulled off a coup which all the F1 voices of ‘reason’ said would not happen or was not logical – they recruited McLaren’s child protegé and team winning WDC, Lewis Hamilton. It’s not clear what McLaren will yet do for 2014. No credible sources have suggested to me that the partnership with McLAren road car engine partner Ricardo has much chance of developing an F1 engine. It was suggested to me today that McLaren may go with Honda for 2013, but I find this incredible and it is most likely even though Mercedes will charge them around $12m they will stick with them next year. Honda, who in a previous partnership with McLaren had meteoric success, have indicated they would like to return to F1, but latest comments from their head of Motorsports indicated this would be beyond 2014. McLaren have surely not yet developed the in-house skills needed to design, test and optimise such a piece of technology to be competitive in time. So where will they turn? As thejudge13 reported last week, Cosworth are now up for Sale. They have a real F1 heritage having been produced F1 engines since 1963 and winning 155 GP’s. The company has recently successfully diversified into a number of other engineering activities and is not selling out because they are not profitable – unlike Lola. The directors planed to float the company on the FTSE to raise much needed capital to pursue projects like developing new F1 2014 engine designs from the drawing board to completion, but stock market floatations are fraught with trouble in present times. So a trade sale for Cosworth is now imminent, and a little bird told me that McLaren are more than very, very interested. What better to complete the Dennis’ vision of a British F1 racing and sports car marque – A historically successful British F1 team and British engine manufacturer of some class.
I'm not sure McLaren would be up for this - Mercedes is rumoured to have spent in excess of 70 million last year alone on the F1 v6, I can't imagine McLaren been able to afford that kind of expense?
Dennis is no fool and this break from Mercedes could be fortuitous a timely amalgamation with Cosworth would truly make a company with a tremendous pedigree, a fantastic heritage, who could possibly not desire a road going McLaren with a full blown Cosworth engine. Ferrari your days are numbered. And Lewis's contract must be get-out-able eh,
the other + for McLaren is the effect it will have on the resource restriction agreement (or whatever it's called), they won;lt have to pay for any engines which means they can spend more on the development of the car without having to cook the books.
Ahhhh but with the new found friend of Mexico+Perez and Carlos Slim, they might well make their own engines pretty quickly. They're now selling McLarens globally with the 12C and P1 with some pretty damn good reviews, so a V6t is part of that plan as well with their designs. 2013 will likely be McLarens last chance to win the WDC/WCC for a couple of years while they build up the empire with a much stronger future and this becoming less dependant on sponsors.
This was my thoughts mate. Performance road cars and looking for more high output small capacity combos with turbos, which just so happens to fall in line with the F1 technolgy. The Mclaren road car company is establishing itself in the market place and is going to make more volume and this would aline costs and development with F1 company.
PURE seems to have died away and they've already done a lot of V6t work. Some sort of McLaren, Cosworth, PURE tie up perhaps?
If McLaren can pull this one off then it looks pretty damned good for the future, it all fits don't it.
I can't see a divorce of McLaren and Mercedes. McLaren have a contract until 2015 and they'll surely hold Mercedes to that. Cosworth would be a good acquisition for McLaren, but they don't have a 2014 engine and it takes a few years of development to produce a competitive engine. McLaren's problem is where their engines will come from after 2015; Mercedes seem to consider their engines a significant advantage from 2014 (that's how they're supposed to have lured Lewis) and wouldn't want to sell them to a team who would almost certainly beat them with it. Ferrari's obviously a no go. Red Bull would veto a McLaren move for Renault engines (as McLaren did when Red Bull went after Mercedes engines for 2010). Which leaves McLaren with no engine supplier for 2016, if they got hold of Cosworth though they have time to develop a decent engine for when their Mercedes deal expires. Cosworth's expertise would also be an asset for their road cars, Cosworth's F1 engines have always been a bit dodgy, but they've tuned some excellent sports car engines over the years.
This talk about the time it takes, the money it takes, Cosworth have dodgy F1 engines, sorry but I don't buy all of this. Mercedes went to Ilmor because they could not develop and engine in house. If you have the engineers and you are allowed to spend the money then you can produce the engines. Cosworth were a cheap alternative for the new teams and if they had produced an outright winner then the big teams would have gone do-lally. Cosworth are not that far off from being very competitive but they do need a top F1 team over a prolonged time to drive them forward. I look forward to seeing how this develops. Of course Ron Dennis may have just hired all those BMW F1 engineers from a couple of years ago?
Welcome aboard Sixties, and an excellent first post! I agree with AG, in that any acquisition would be looking more long-term, than for immediate results. If Mercedes' 2014 engine is everything it's cracked up to be, then Mclaren will want in on that. By buying Cosworth now, the Cosworth team know that they don't need to rush an engine out for 2014, but 2016 is their target, assuming they don't agree to supply to anyone else. Bringing Cosworth in-house should allow them a closer look at the Mercedes engine, in order to help shape their 2016 engine. Alternatively, (assuming I'm not missing an agreement) Marussia have a technical link with Mclaren which Mclaren could use to their advantage. They could offer Marussia cheap engines so Cosworth can use them as a test bed for the 2014 or 2015 season, to iron out any kinks before Mclaren start using them. Hopefully a Cosworth Mclaren tie-up would cause a Cosworth resurgent, to offer a genuine alternative engine choice. Probably a stupid question, but is engine development allowed for the 2014 season and beyond? Or are the engines going to be equalised like they were before, and then engine development frozen?
Mclaren Honda might just happen! http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?optio...h-mclaren-engine-supply&catid=1:f1&Itemid=157 "It is a poorly kept secret that McLaren is talking with Honda."
