Just to extend on that point, I find it annoying that all the opposing player has to do is one good touch to knock it away from Gerrard and he's beaten - far too easily.
Gerrard's not had a yard to play in with our set-up in attack. This has been the case for a while. Sturridge came on v United and Gerrard's shot from outside the area forced a very good save from De Gea. Danny boy mopped it up. v Norwich, again, Gerrard can get in on the action 25 yards out with room to take a touch. Goal. The fact he can operate a bit higher up the pitch with some freedom to influence would imo add a spring to his step, cos before that he must have been thinking if he gets the ball he gets crowded out and has no one to aim for so what's the fkn point. A belief player.. yep, he believes he can now get some joy by going forward
I dont think he felt like he had adequate cover behind him (when lucas was injured) Allen used to play too inconsistant,and with a dodgy pass backs (from skrtel and johnson) he probably felt he had to pick up the ball depper, so he couldnt really play that ball in the final ball or strike on target. Lucas coming back, and henderson hitting a bit of form (and general morale being up) has helped him. he now plays where he prefers, AMF.. Plus, its sad to say, but his legs are going a bit, you wouldnt expect pirlo or lampard harassing the ball if they lose it.. he has to conserve his energy... maybe its time for a bit of rotation..Shelvey, allen need to step up.
all players play better with good players around them.In Gerrards case it enables him to express himself knowing someone else will be covering for him. When we have played weaker sides he definitely holds back to protect the back four and does not push forward, which is his strongest skill.
This debate will go on and on. I'm not seeing Gerrard being lazy I'm seeing Gerrard being clever and expecting others to win the ball for him. Gerrard is then in the correct area to create again. To me he is the link, the free man available to start attacks. We have to have faith in the players defending and in their ability to win the ball back, if everyone defends we have no attack.
attack and defend together? if he's clever then how come he'll be out of the game if we don't win it back in 5 seconds and have to start coming back anyway? i thought being creative meant being available for a pass when we win it back... its just a question. anyway... i think it'll be interesting to see what comes up with us i nthe next 8 days.. end of transfer window, oldham and arsneal yeah? 2 wins and a 20mil signing (in a pigs ear) and gerrard could be well up for it.
I think you're right about the debate going on and on Going on your theory, I tend to look at the team / system and see how many attackers we have compared to defenders. Rafa liked the 4231 which was effectively six defenders and four attackers. BR likes 433, in this the four defenders and three attackers are obvious, I'm not exactly sure how the midfield trio split though. If what you say is right then I guess Gerrard is the fourth attacker but then, why does Henderson / Allen play ahead of him? Of course, it isn't always a 6:4 split either, Chelsea under Mourinho had a 5:5 split with just the one DM in Makelele. Mancini in the season before last had a 7:3 split with three DM's On your lazy point, I said above that it is probably the wrong word to use. I'm not bothered if he doesn't track back or get back in position (so long as someone is covering), I have an issue with when he loses the ball but then turns his back despite being within five yards of the mis-placed pass! I was always taught that if you lose possession then you should try and get it back (within reason, don't go chasing a mis-placed fifty yard pass) to make up for your error, not just for yourself but for your teammates too!
I don't think Gerrard's a belief player with regards to belief in himself, I think he's well aware of his own abilities but only now has become aware of his limitations hence why he doesn't try and chase every lost cause anymore. He knows that he can't do it physically these days without getting a succession of injuries. Some players seem built to do it without suffering injuries (Kuyt being a great example). Gerrard I'm sure would love to still be able to do it now but he simply can't. For me the fact that he's done it for hundreds of games for the club should give him a bit of leeway now with supporters but some seem determined to find fault at any given opportunity. The belief issues Gerrard has is belief in the players around him (or rather lack of). His career has been blighted by managers surrounding him with some abject ****e. He's been in and out of the team a lot in the last few seasons precisely because he's never adjusted his game. This has been his longest run in the team for a long time and it's beginning to show now that he still has that class and ability that separates him from the rest. It amazes me that some people still expect him to play perfectly every game. All the bollocks being chatted about him being lazy makes me laugh: a) Would you rather he was on the treatment table or on the pitch? (I know the answer from some will be treatment table) b) Try and watch and understand his positioning on the field when he hasn't got the ball. 9 out of 10 times he's in the right position to not have to go chasing around like a headless chicken but that doesn't seem to matter to some fans. It's the one time he isn't and a player goes past him, that certain people seem to be very willing to highlight. It almost seems like a desire to see him fail just to be able to say "I told you his legs have gone" or "I said he'd got lazy". c) It would be very wise (IMO) for the staff at Liverpool to find ways to keep him fit and prolong his career and if that means getting those around him to do a bit more leg work then so be it. It's a team game and yes every player needs to chip in but you wouldn't ask, for example Skrtel or Lucas to do what Gerrard can do offensively so why is it so important to some that Gerrard does what Lucas or Skrtel do defensively. Gerrard has hit better form not just because he's adjusted (yet again) to a new system and slightly different role but also because Rodgers has found a way (or stumbled upon a way) to help him out. For a player that's been such a disaster defensively (apparently) here are some interesting stats: I picked Yaya out as a comparison simply because he's a class act as a defensive or attacking midfielder (when on form). In the interests of fairness Yaya has played two games less than Gerrard, Tackles won: Gerrard 43, Toure 17 Tackles lost: Gerrard 13, Toure 6 Tackles won(%): Gerrard 76.8, Toure 73.9 Clearances: Gerrard 36, Toure 13 Blocks: Gerrard 3, Toure 1 Interceptions: Gerrad 31, Toure 18 Passing accuracy(%): Gerrard 86.7, Toure 89.3 Duels won: Gerrard 104, Toure 93 Duels lost: Gerrard 81, Toure 95 Aerial duels won: Gerrard 25 , Toure 20 Aerial duels lost: Gerrard 19, Toure 22 Recoveries: Gerrard 118, Toure 113 Goals: Gerrard 5, Toure 4 Shooting accuracy(%): Gerrard 48.6, Toure 41.2 Assists: Gerrard 8, Toure 3 Chances created: Gerrard 61, Toure 36 Ok so Yaya probably isn't having his greatest season but he's hardly a bad player. Looking at these I'll have a "lazy" Gerrard in the first team any day of the week. "He who can't be dropped" or "He who shouldn't be dropped"?
On the winning back of the ball point- I cringe when I see players make a mistake, lose the ball then try and win it back immediately. Especially if they are chasing down an opponent heading towards goal, far too often all they will do is give away a free in a dangerous position. As has been mentioned, an organised team will allow a defender to move towards the attacker whilst the ball-losing culprit moves to cover them. It's ok to harass and chase if you have the pace to overtake, but a tackle from behind almost invariably draws a free kick these days (even if the ball is played first). On the original question of whether Gerrard is a belief player- we've seen him almost single-handedly win games for us in the past so maybe it's a question of self-belief rather than in those around him. I just don't think he's capable of doing that any more and we can't expect it of him. As mentioned, we're going to be divided on this,- imo, his current play is poor only by the fantastically high standard he's set for himself in the past.
Fair enough. However, I have one question...do you think it is acceptable to turn away in disgust (with yourself) leaving your teammates to deal with your mistake? I don't mean the chasing to get the ball back (I obviously think players should do this but I'm ignoring that here), I am talking purely about being part of the team and getting back in position. Just for the record, I have no problem with Gerrards performances and I'm certainly not looking for something to moan about, we have enough issues to moan about already . It is not just Gerrard either, other players do it too but Stevie is the main culprit and should be setting the example as captain, afterall, he is a 'lead by example' captain rather than a 'organiser'
Look at the stats I've posted and he can't be turning away in disgust too often can he? I think I can forgive him the odd **** up for numbers like those. Any suggestion that because of a few moments of slackness he isn't a team player or doesn't get back in position quickly enough I'll argue with until the cows come home (or the cow comes home) I'd much rather he carried on being in the right position in the first place which he is 90% of the time.
I don't pay much attention to stats, I trust my eyes much more However, I don't think he does it anywhere near as much as he used to but that's because he doesn't get forward as much as he used too either Edit: those stats look impressive but Toure as been poor this season so hardly a fair comparison. What about comparing to Cazrola, Carrick, Ramires, etc? I never said Gerrard's playing poorly either
your points are all excellent. My i say you've mis quoted me, "he who cannot be TOUCHED" doesn't in any way equate to he who cannot be dropped. MY point is he plays very minute of every game and so this is one issue thats a very separate one to lazy. I've simply said i've seen him play a certain way and appear i nthe last ten when we've needed more i nthe pervious 80. this is also very different point to the quesiton i've asked which is does he beleive in whats going on now and playing with more intent. anyway your points are excellent but i must say i'm shocked that stats show yaya only making 17 tackles all year. I would compare yaya to gerrard also i nterms of role mancini wants him to play or DID. 17 tackles is tiny.
Toure hasn't been poor this season. He hasn't been as good as last year and I used him as an example exactly because of that. Gerrard hasn't been poor this season either but he hasn't been as good as we've seen from him before. I don't pay too much attention to stats either and I see a lot more of Gerrard with my eyes because I sit and watch him every week (and not just the bits you see on tv). Those stats were used merely to counter the argument that he's lazy and useless defensively. As a whole they don't really tell the story of a lazy player anymore than my eyes do week in week out. So I use my eyes and can back up what I see with my eyes with a few stats too
I think its just the fact he is fully fit after having an awful time with injuries plus he now understands & has adapted to the role he has to play in midfield under Brendan. And maybe, just maybe, it was never Gerrard's lack of belief or laziness. It might just be that you were wrong about him. It would be nice if people could admit that, instead of still trying to justify the constant criticism of him and the almost weekly questioning of his desire earlier in the season.
Just for the record here's a few comparisons with Cazorla who has certainly been in good form this season( Gerrard's played 40 mins more for the record): Total passes: Gerrard 1550, Cazorla 1519 Passing accuracy(%): Gerrard 86.7, Cazorla 87 Duels won(%): Gerrard 56.2, Cazorla 52.4 Aerial duels won(%): Gerrard 56.8, Cazorla 50 Tackles won: Gerrard 43, Cazorla 32 Tackles lost: Gerrard 13, Cazorla 8 Clearances: Gerrard 36, Cazorla 5 Interceptions: Gerrard 31, Cazorla 39 Goals: Gerrard 5, Cazorla 8 Shooting accuracy(%): Gerrard 48.6, Cazorla 53.1 Assists: Gerrard 8, Cazorla 6 Chances created: Gerrard 61, Cazorla 54 Not too shabby really, some good some bad. We know he's not been at his sparkling best, I won't try to argue otherwise but you either accept him as the "new Gerrard" warts and all or you trust the club to buy an adequate replacement (insert manic laughter). The other option is that you trust a young lad like Suso or Coady (or even Sahin who's name was thrown around as a better bet than Gerrard) to come in and play better and contribute more than Gerrard will over the course of a season.
For me its about balance. I don't thibk that Gerrard has the legs to be the all action player that he once was. With Lucas' defensive competence and Hendo's energy thats two things that Gerrard doesn't have to worry about, leaving him to concentrate on what he is still great at. This is why I dislike Allen, because he currently doesn't match up to Hendo's work rate so Gerrard needs to do more running than he would do with Hendo in the team
I think that is a fairer comparison and is pretty much as I expect with Cazorla getting the better with attacking areas and Gerrard defensively. Not much in it really but, as I keep saying, I've not been questioning Gerrard's performances either
