Demba Ba, the main reason we're not playing as a team?

Do I look like Nostradamus? I haven't got a beard for a start... How am I, you, anyone supposed to know if we didn't play Ba we'd have scored more?! The stats suggest we wouldn't have, because the strike-rate of the others, their accuracy of finish and their goal record is poor when compared with Ba. You can't seriously expect Pardew to drop our top goal-scorer, the only one who is scoring, because you have a wild hunch we'd play better without him? Like I say, you'd need much more in-depth, informative stats to prove that... Stats Pardew will most likely have chewed over a billion times by today. This suggests such stats don't exist.

There's absolutely no evidence for what you are suggesting at all. As the Opta article shows though, we've seen a sharp increase in percentage of long-balls, a massive decline in finishing from set-pieces, and the overall picture is we aren't playing in an effective way. Playing long-ball to Ba hasn't worked because the midfield aren't up with him quick enough, and he's got nobody running beyond him on the wings, except an offside Cisse , hence nobody to pass to and create chances, leaving some people to declare him selfish.

In recent weeks we've changed to playing short more often and we've played much better (aesthetically and statistically) as a result (as the Opta guy notes), so I'm pretty sure that is the final nail in the coffin of your proposal. It hasn't been Demba's fault for not creating, it's been Pardew/the players insisting on a tactic that wasn't utilizing our midfield.

 

So he should shoot for the times when he scores, but pass when he isn't going to score? Easy, we can all see into the future right?

Show me conversion %'s to prove this, otherwise you don't have a point, sorry.

 

All the best strikers are selfish – they all believe 100% they are more likely to score than the other guy, so why pass?

Frankly our service to front men has been so woeful that it is his inherent selfishness that has gotten us his goals this season, and thank god for it!

At the moment Demba Ba is the unequivocal difference between the club enjoying Premier League status or dropping back to the Championship. He clearly believes that this, coupled with him compromising his own ambitions is worth £90k a week.

The question is more about what price the club puts on that and whether we agree...

 

ok...

The point is, why include stats that don't back-up your point successfully, then moan when people point it out? Why pick those stats to begin with? Is it because other stats say something you're not comfortable admitting? Is it because they don't agree with your view as much? Is it because you couldn't find any others?

We're trying to evaluate the merits of your proposition, so it's not unreasonable we question these things, nor is it the end of a thread when somebody does so... Unless your opinion has changed based on the robustness of the questioning.

 

It is just opinion as opposed to fact MrToontastic. The whole point is to debate the merits of the article, you've had both negative and positive comment, and just have to take both as they come. You feel the stats back up the point, some feel they don't or are irrelevant. Just got to take both as they come as I say.

The word "selfish" is part of a strikers repertoire. Shearer, A Cole, Fowler, Owen were all extremely selfish strikers, would you change them? Cisse is a selfish striker. Most of the best are. If you use stats to back up a point people will always consider those stats, and counter them if they feel they don't agree.

Chill man, its not a bad thing. We all see things differently, variety is the spice of life. As for the Toonforum, not sure their views are relevant to what our posters think, for all they are a good set of lads/lasses.

 

Think people on here got tied up in the stats themselves rather than the subject matter of the article.

Forget the stats, if you feel they irrelevant to the argument but actually consider the motion that Ba is not just a typical selfish striker but is greedy and has hampered our attacking style from last season.

People have pointed out that service to the strikers has been poor. That's my point. Ba should be playing with the team rather than just shooting and ignoring some good positions and runs from others.

People point at the defence but giving the ball away needlessly like Ba does when shooting or holding onto the ball too long is why the defence is in the game more. If your opponent hasn't got the ball they can't score.

But like I've said I've given up on the article because we're never going to get back on track to the actual point.

 

Unless Willo passes back to the keeper.

Sorry if you're reading this Willo, just joking.

 

When I talk about the defence it has zero to do with Ba. I can't speak for others. The key thing hurting us in my opinion is individual errors, we're giving goals away for fun. Colo made two incredibly poor offside calls on Saturday and has cost 4 or 5 goals of late. Santon miskicked on the line. These are the things we need to cut out.

He is guilty of shooting once too often on occasion, but you have to buy a ticket. Tiote's long rangers are much more of a problem given his scattergun shooting searching for another Arsenal.

The poor service to the strikers is not Ba's fault. We can't get all of our creative players fit at the same time and they're often making poor decisions. You can't blame Ba for all their **** ups. He could maybe pass a bit more, but it probably wouldn't be raised as issue if others were doing their job. Strikers greed is ignored when the other areas function well. Ba is not a Beardsley type player and never will be. He can improve a little like Cole did at Man U, but he will always be a goal getter. Maybe the point is that we struggle to get Cisse and Ba functioning together because they are the same thing. The answer is not to try and convert one into something else, it is to add a player to balance the squad and put them in straight competition for one spot.

 

My opinion is that most of our squad has been poor this season (apart from Santon and Perch) - Ba has been lucky in that he has grabbed the headlines for us by scoring all the goals. We have 2 very selfish players in Ba and Cisse up front (as we want it and as others have said earlier thats what the top strikers are) - unfortunately the system we have been playing, due to lack of form and the absence of our "purple" players, means that we do not get the best out of the team as a unit thus hindering its overall effectiveness that we saw last year.

I personally believe, no evidence and just a hunch, that Ba is currently out for himself in looking for his (or his agents) next big payday which is currently highlighting his greed and selfishness, luckily for him though and for us to a degree is that he is scoring!

 

I think this is a very brave article. Saying the unsayable given Ba's goal tally. But do you know what, I think you're absolutely 100% right. Spot on mate and well argued.

 

Haha, thanks, I knew it would be a hard one to swallow for some given Ba's individual success this season but the only thing I can liken it to is the Nolan argument people were having at the beginning of last season.

 

I said on a similar thread a few days ago that this will keep cropping up whilst Ba's agent has his way.
Sadly that's the modern way.
The only loyal people are the fans - and even then...

Seriously, as long as he eeps scoring, it keeps him in the shop window.

Agree with comments about Nolan - thought we'd miss him more.

 

Where was this thread last year when we were winning, but didn't have Cisse? Where was it when Ba hadn't scored a goal but Cisse was banging them in?

The answer is, it wasn't there because we weren't having to look for a scapegoat.

Another question, why now offer this question when we have been acknowledged as playing better as a team in recent weeks? Is it because we're still losing?

Up to the Fulham game stats:
http://www.eplindex.com/23272/epls-top-players-clear-cut-chances-chance-creation-frequency.html

Demba has the best clear-cut chance conversion in the league, and retains the highest shooting accuracy in the league
I'm not sure what you guys think is happening? You think we lob it up to him, he selfishly takes it down, turns and blasts it at the keeper from 45 yards??? That isn't what's happening. He's doing a job as a target man AND scoring the goals. He doesn't even shoot regularly from range...

There is no statistical base, or actual basis for this argument other than when informed by the rumour that he's holding Pardew to ransom to play like this. You think after the way he treated Ben Arfa that's what's happening?! The man has more stats, has access to training, chooses the tactics, yet it's all Ba's fault we play this way?

Looking at the table tells everyone all they need to know. We've scored 19 and conceded 26. 19 isn't bad scoring in a poor season, 26 is woeful conceding rate. I don't think you can hold Ba accountable for defending surely? This is a team who have conceded 9 headed goals, the most in the league by a few. We aren't defending well at all, and that's what's costing us points, and what has actually led to this article's argument... If we'd not conceded as many and scored 19, we'd be up the table and nobody would be moaning.

If this is literally just about aesthetic experience, we aren't Arsenal/Barca, and weren't last season (I suppose that's Ba's fault as well)... Not sure how/if you can debate with anyone who thinks this is how we should or could be playing.

 

please log in to view this image

Guiding you through European waters.

 

This