It has taken far too long for the truth to finally be told and it must be a consolation (al be it a very small one) to the families. There is now no doubt that the actions of the police on that fateful day effected if not caused the events that followed. I do however think it is important to accept and learn from the real cause which was a minority of football fans at the time. By that, I do not mean Liverpool fans but football fans in general. For at least 2 decades before and also since, rival fans insistance on being idiots and wanting to fight has caused the police to make certain decisions. Had it not been for previous fighting on the pitches all over England there would have been no need for the fencing preventing an easy exit for those involved. Had it not been for the idiots, segregation would not have been necessary meaning that when Liverpool fans got to that gate to find quick access impossible they may have been able to try the other end or anywhere else in the ground which could have removed the need to open an exit gate. The Hooligan element in football (Every club, not just Liverpool) are ultimately to blame. It was they that caused the need for Police 'cattle herding' tactics which put large amounts of people into concentrated areas. There are many factors here and I dont think it is as easy as just pointing the finger at the police. That is the easy thing to do but ultimately, I think if blame is to be correctly apportioned then football fans of all clubs need to look a little closer to home, to the minority within our own ranks that confuse passion for your club and hatred for all others. The minority that cannot see rival fans for what they are, fans of football who just happen to live somewhere else. I hope this is taken the way it is intended, I am certainly not pointing the finger at any of those involved in the events that occurred on that truely horrible day but there is a truth there that we all must accept. Our actions have consequence and too often that consequence is suffered by the innocent.
I disagree with this in its entirity. This entire disaster had nothing and I mean nothing to do with hooliganism. Lets look at it away from football for a second, supposing there is a night-club and the owners allow 1000 people into a function room that only can hold 500? I've worked in a night-club and normally they only let 480 in if the night-club can hold 500 for safety reasons. So supposing they let 1000 in and there is an almighty crush? The reason for the crush would have been total negligence for safety, and mismanagement. Thats exactly what happened here. Sorry, you cannot blame hooliganism for what happened in 1989. The cause of the disaster was due to negligence, incompetence and a lack of organisation by the authorities.
I'm afraid I cannot agree. Your point about a nightclub is valid, but very different. This was a football match and back then the entire ethos of Police crowd handling at football matches was to prevent hooliganism. Stadiums (not just Hillsborough) were designed with preventing hooliganism as the major priority. Too little thought was given to other factors at that time because of the hooliganism and the negative press it brought to a club. These are undeniable factors in what happened that day. The fences, the division of terraces into sections, the disrespect with which footballs fans were treated back then. I was certainly not implying for one second that there was any kind of hooligan element or impact on the day itself. Because of the obvious hurt felt by so many people the whole topic becomes very difficult to discuss but I do think it is important to see the bigger picture. On that day the police were to blame. In the run up there were other guilty parties who faile to make appropriate arrangements. However, none of these people acted with the intention to cause the problems that occurred. So, we need to look at why they acted the way they did and much of that is down to previous crowd trouble at games all over the country.
I've read both of your posts very carefully and can only come up with 1 question - WHY? If you've looked at any of the posts on this board this week then you'd realise that emotions here are very very raw. Quite rightly given the truths that were exposed on Wednesday. Now I don't know too much about the culture amongst Norwich fans but here we have lived with the catastrophe, we have supported the families in their fight and we have suffered the taunts from other fans. We are now concentrated on trying to ensure that the truth is now followed by swift and sure justice. Now I doubt that you would expect a positive response to the suggestion that the UK had role to play in the outbreak of WW1 on the 12th November 1918. So why do you expect a positive response from us at this time? It may assuage your thoughts on this issue but you have certainly picked the wrong place to voice it and certainly the wrong time.
Dave The poster before me said it was ''Hooliganism in the 80s'' which was the cause of why fans were penned in. In my opinion, this had nothing to do with the disaster. I made the point about the night-club scenario as my way of explaining that there is going to be hazards, if you put double the amount of people into an area than you should. Thats what happened here, I made this point painfully clear and the facts are there. Liverpool had the bigger share of the fan-base, and therefore they should have got the bigger side of the ground. Forest had the smaller share but got the bigger side. Therefore my point is correct. Why put say 5000 people into an area which only holds 2500? As far as I'm concerned, gross negligence, incompetence, and mismanagement was the cause of this disaster. It had nothing to do with people being penned in as mentioned by this previous poster.
I know it's not rocket science but surely ffs Liverpool were allocated the wrong end. Liverpool have a much bigger fan base than Forest (no disrespect to forest) and the organizers have to look at themselves and think we should have realized this when Leeds were allocated this end v Coventry a couple of years before, and were also overcrowded and put at risk, crazy
Kenny foggo, I get what you are saying and hope it was meant in the right way. However, having said that you are about 98% wrong as although the management and fear of hooliganism was a factor, that was true for every game and similar disasters did not happen.
Thats was the point I was making. It was gross incompetence, negligence and overall incompentence by the SYP, The FA and SWFC.
Thats why I disagreed with his comment. As far as I'm concerned the entire catastrophy was caused by incompetence, negligence, carelessness, sloppiness, and overall stupidity.
And then compounded by lies, cover ups, fabrication of "evidence", distorting (!) the truth, and a general passing of the buck to where it ultimately landed, the fans.
Couldn't agree more - and the fact is that without the determination of the families the evidence of this cover-up would have lain undisturbed for 30 years or more. The families of the 96 have done not only football but British society a great service.
It was absolutely meant in the right way. I am no expert but I have recently seen so much finger pointing at the police from posts here, the press, everywhere. No doubt, the Police played their part that day but there are many guilty parties. I truely hope that the families of the 96 who were undoubtably innocent victims of incompetance, mismanagement and circumstance are able now to find some peace or at least now have the facts in place that allow them to walk which ever path leads them to peace.
I think to a certain extent you are missing something here. Anyone who went to any football ground in the '80s will tell you that it was bloody easy (even from a fans perspective) to tell when an area was being policed well and when it was not. Anyone who ever got shoved or stood on by a police horse will tell you that you just do not go back for seconds and you get in line bloody quickly. Not only was Hillsborough totally avoidable but the cover-up which emanated from the top levels of SYP was because they knew it was totally avoidable. Do you seriously expect that after the biggest operational **** up in decades people shouldn't be pointing fingers at those responsible? We've been pointing fingers at these masonic ****s for 23 years but still they went untouched. Now you think we should just say "aaaw here's a slap on the wrist and thanks for that heartfelt apology"? Yes there are many guilty parties but not a single one would have been able to get away with any of it had the police just been honest after the event. Did they really have to smear the families and the people of this city just to save themselves from admitting they ****ed up? Hooliganism was the excuse they used at the time and hooliganism is the excuse they are still hiding behind to this day. Hooliganism was undoubtedly a problem in the 70s and 80s but did the police really try to combat it? Or did they use it as an excuse to give a few working class boys a good kicking on a Saturday afternoon...they just let the worst get away with it because "they were just letting off steam"? Football fans as a whole were treated worse than animals when in truth only a handful from any given club were interested in causing trouble. Ask yourself why police forces in those days allowed these men to keep going to matches and causing trouble. Policing in those dark days was a them and us scenario. We liked to go to go and watch football...they liked to kick the **** out of working class people.
The SYP totally deserve far more than the finger pointing that it going on. They deserve the full might of the law to be meted-out to them for their dereliction of duty before and on the day and the subsequent cover up. The police forces across the UK should also be looking at their actions and reactions to events totally unrelated to Hillsborough and critically analysing their own cultures (the culture with the police forces was NOT unique to SYP). Certainly there are other organisations and individuals who should now be paying the price for their guilt and I have already tried to identify them. Personally, I am not a believer in the concept of closure. I find it a trite piece of pseudo-science. The families were already living with the pain which has now been exacerbated by the information that so many could possible have been saved. They now burn for for Disrealli's proclamation that "justice is truth in action" to be put into effect. The extent of that 'justice' will probably not go as far as they want but only after it has been enacted can this matter finally be put to rest. If you want to look at the 'bigger picture' then perhaps your thoughts would be better employed upon concentrating upon how the checks and balances upon the authorities in our country could have been so perverted and sustained for so long. History does repeat itself unless people of goodwill stand against it.
I read something this morning about why Hillsborough was chosen. It was because the fans were penned in. Other stadia such as Highbury( a much safer ground) was available, but the FA didn't choose it because it didn't have those fences. We've outlined that this tragedy was caused by mismanagement, poor organisation and negligence. There is more than just the SYP guilty here and it could take a long time to get through all the guilty parties. I mentioned this before on another thread or was it this one, Why were Forest with the smaller support given the bigger end? Sorry you cannot fit 10,000 people into an area that holds 5000. Its only asking for trouble. This tragedy could easily have been avoided, but there had been near misses on occasions between 1981-1987. The FA should have done their job and acted sooner.
