To the history geeks amongst us I put this question to you. It's something I've always wondered but never understood. Liverpool share a passionate rivalry with Manchester United, much of which can be traced back to the canal days of the late 19th century. Given the history between the respective Cities I've never quite understood why there seems to be little Ill feeling between Liverpool and City or even Everton and United/City.
For one, it's a bit of the mentality of: "an enemy of my enemy is my friend". Anyone who hated the scum couldn't be all that bad, and anyone who celebrated as much as we did after beating them would be closer to us than other teams. Of course that's very oversimplified but it probably played a bit part in it. Secondly, and I'm not trying to WUM here, with all due respect Everton/City weren't considered important enough to be worth striking up a rivalry towards (for their counterparts that is). You're always going to have more ill will towards the more successful of the two, and given that Liverpool and United were more dominant historically they naturally hated each other more. Why would United hate Tranmere? Why would we hate Wigan? They're not direct competitors. At the time, those two clubs were less competitors to their opposite team (City to Liverpool, Everton to United) than other teams and so weren't really given much thought other than minor spectacles.
Part of the attitude towards City probably does have a lot to do with 'my enemy's enemy'. Until the 70's (maybe the 80s), our biggest friends/rivals were still Everton. However as Everton declined then United took their place and that rivalry festered into hatred. We couldn't hate The Toffees as they were our friends or even family but that restraint was not there with United. City however, apart from one brief period were never a real threat. The came to Anfield and played pants and lost or pretty football and lost. We also admired their fans because of both their stoicism and sense of humour.
That's not true though. Throughout much of the 60s Everton were better than Liverpool and City better than United. There must be something else to it.
Better question; would you like a true competitive rivalry between the London clubs (which have been successful) you, Spurs, Arsenal. Is it like ours was, fairly respectful or is it the modern belligerent?
There is a strong rivalry between us, West Ham, Spurs and Arsenal (Moreso the latter) but at the end of the day we all live with each other so it brings a different edge to it. There is respect but also limits (apart from West Ham)
Hey DL you'd better go and check your facts before you come here postulating such heresy! Here it is for you. LIVERPOOL Div 1 Champions: 63-64, 65-66 Div 2 Champions: 61-62 FA Cup: 65 Charity Shield: 64,65,66 EVERTON Div 1 Champions 62-63, 69-70 FA Cup: 66 Charity Shield: 63
Ok DL, as Dave has pointed out you kinda fecked the stats up but despite this being the LFC board, I Am interested in why their doesn't seem that same edge. Is it because London is so big. The rest of us have two teams; you have give or take, 6 in & around the top league these days. Does it dilute the venom so to speak?
I think the biggest reason- as mentioned above- is that as City were also United's natural enemy- they were proxy-friends. Everton and United historically have not got along... Moyes seems to cosy up to United quite a bit these days- best Everton players are always looked at by United- and the rejects from United sometimes go to Everton...
I don't know how much of this is true, but I remember having a conversation with my great grandad along these lines. For him the rivalry started as friendly banter between Catholics. Again, he said that in the 30s a disproportionate no of united fans were catholic, as were a large proportion of Liverpool fans. His view was always that the rivalry was about who was the biggest catholic team in the north west, and he used the catholic link to explain the relationship between Liverpool and Celtic. I'm sceptical as I think you can argue that either Liverpool or Everton were catholic and protestant after the split, and my great grandads version is just that, his version. Whether its right or not, it explains why he and my Grandad, andtheir friends, believed the rivalry was there, success came later on. Religion is certainly nothing to do with it now.
I'll try and answer this as best I can... Because people move about London so much I guess rivalries can sort of change. There are divisions amongst support depending on where you live and this can even be stretched back to the home counties. I live in South London but most of my family are Arsenal fans & from West London, these are Chelsea strongholds. Every Arsenal fan I know bar my best mate hates Chelsea more than Spurs (in fact some don't even mind Spurs at all and quite like them), this is probably because they are surrounded by Chelsea fans and don't come across many Spurs fans to share the rivalry with. Unless your from North London or a regular at Arsenal it is difficult to share the same kind of passion/hatred. Chelsea's traditional rivals should be Fulham but they are a family club and spent most of their time in a separate division. No Chelsea fan I know hates Fulham in fact quite the opposite, many adopt them as a 2nd club. Chelsea fans tend to pine for Spurs but it is also a generational thing. To put it simply because London is so huge whereabouts you live tends to dictate which club you hate or view as your rivals which can also dilute the rivalry. The home counties is where much of the support is at though, that shouldn't be forgotten. Surrey (Chelsea), Middlesex (Chelsea), Kent (Millwall), Essex (West Ham), Hertfordshire (Spurs), Sussex, Berkshire (All mixed)
If anything, Id say Man Utd and Everton are like best buddies! I think the rivalry between Liverpool and Man Utd is more to do with wanting to be the best club in the country. The rivalry wasn't as bad as it is now, it only really started to take off in the eighties/nineties (least from what Ive read that is)
City have 3 league titles, have rarely been considered a top club and compared to the other 3 clubs are insignificant as far as top level football rivalries are concerned. Everton on the other hand, being one of the countries most successful clubs do have a rivalry with United, albeit not on the scale of our rivalry with Liverpool.
It goes far far deeper than wanting to be the best. Stems back centuries between the two cities and the rivalry between the cities 2 top clubs is just one part of it.
True but I was talking purely in a footy sense. If youre talking cities then there will obviously be rivalry including Man City and Everton but since we are seperating it down to club level it needs to be football related!
I believe there was a bit of jealousy from the Liverpool end that Manchester United were the media favourites at the time due to the whole Busby babes stuff even though Liverpool were a lot more succesful at the time (60s/70s/80s). I also believe Man Utd were jealous of Liverpool's actual team and how good it was. Sounds quite childish but from what I've read thats the general reason put forward for the rivarly, two sets of fans jealous of each other for different reasons.
My perception was always that the Scouse vs Manc thing did spill over into Everton vs Man U and Liverpool vs Man City games. E.g. Everton fans: please log in to view this image And Man City fans singing 'Manchester, Manchester, Manchester' and anti-Scouse stuff when playing Liverpool and Everton (from my admittedly armchair perspective). Personally, I don't buy into the "enemy's enemy" stuff either and can't stand Man City. They never really showed up on my radar when younger, but their pathetic, plastic club buying success has really turned my head to what typical Manc nobheads they are. So I think wherever you see these inter-city rivalries, the lesser games will still carry it on to an extent, even if it's less publicized than the traditionally big derby game.
