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Camelot entered for Champions Stakes

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by OddDog, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Camelot could be set for a mouthwatering clash with Frankel on British Champions day as both horses are among 46 entries for the Champion Stakes over 10F on October 20th.

    Details here:

    Sporting Life

    Racing Post

    Will Camelot be targetted at this or the Arc?
    Would Frankel run on soft ground?

    Will it be a "Clash of the Titans" or a damp squib?
     
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  2. PNkt

    PNkt Well-Known Member

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    I owuld have thought it was a safety entry. Better to pay a few £100/£1,000 to enter now than have to pay out a supplementary fee later on.

    I would have thought that the Arc would be the logicial race for him and with 13 days between the two, I can't see them taking in Ascot as well.
     
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  3. GGW

    GGW Well-Known Member

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    He might well run the Ledger and be done for the year.
     
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  4. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Only 22 days between the St Leger and the Arc Princess - might they be tempted to give him a couple of weeks more recovery time and have a crack at Frankel? I guess alot will depend on how Frankel goes over 10F at York - if he hoses up in a fast time in a truly run race then I doubt they'll fancy taking him on. But if he doesn't win impressively, and it looks like the tank might be emptying, then they might consider having a crack at him (expecially with the ground at Ascot likely to be more testing, although who knows with the British weather?)
     
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  5. PNkt

    PNkt Well-Known Member

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    3 year olds have such a great record in the Arc though, what with the weight allowance. Since 2000, 9 of the 12 runnings have been won by 3yos.

    Compare that to the Champion Stakes where only 5 of the last 12 runnings have been won by 3yos, though obviously the weight allowance is the same.
     
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  6. GGW

    GGW Well-Known Member

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    Most years a horse like Camelot would run in the Arc and then bugger off to stud but if ever there was a year that that won't be the case then this is that year.
     
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  7. Dexter

    Dexter Well-Known Member

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    I think Camelot will be a much better colt at 12f than 10f and unlikely he'll be asked to drop from the Leger trip to 10f this Autumn.

    Since he has won the 2000 Guineas at a mile he has absolutely nothing to prove at any trip shorther than 12f in any case.

    Besides,regardless of Frankels presence,The Arc is by far and away a more prestigious event.

    The Irish Champion is looking like a great event but like so many G1's recently will probobly cut up as well...firm ground maybe!!!
     
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  8. Dexter

    Dexter Well-Known Member

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    Not sure George..maybe as an unbeaten Triple Crown,Arc,G1 winning miler son of the recently departed Montjeu he may be asked to step into the breach so to speak..who knows..he might not win another a race!!..

    One suspects his unbeaten record,just as in the case of Frankel,will be the determining factor re his targets.
     
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  9. GGW

    GGW Well-Known Member

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    Yep I agree Dex but I just wonder if Coolmore won't want to retire him at the same time as Frankel for a number of reasons and on top of that presumably he wants similar mares to Pour Moi who they are still establishing at stud. I don't really know enough about it all yet but I'm keen to here people's thoughts.
     
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  10. Dexter

    Dexter Well-Known Member

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    Good point George...they both have middle distance pedigree;s although different distaff lines...PN could definitely answer that one better than us.

    Much too early to consider selling Pour Moi you'd think,believe he was shuttling to NZ when last reported.I would have thought there would be room for both in the operation since PM first crop would be already a year earlier?

    I just think that if Camelot lives up to the Coolmore rhetoric and wins the TC and The Arc he will be off to the sheds,especially with the death of Montjeu.Not a left left to prove tbh and he has a wonderful pedigree,they both do.I think Pour Moi's dam is also the dam of Kissable.

    What do you think PN?
     
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  11. PNkt

    PNkt Well-Known Member

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    Off the top of my head, Coolmore only have 2 sons of Montjeu at stud: Pour Moi and Hurricane Run, who has been disappointing so far.

    I suspect Coolmore will be keen to fill the gap left by Montjeu though the concerning fact is that he as yet to establish himself as a sire of sires - Motivator, Authorized et al have not yet delivered the goods, whereas Galileo only has 4 sons with crops of racing age and they have all produced Group winners.

    First season sides are always the "in thing" for breeders, as evidenced by the fact that Sea The Stars book fell from 140-ish in his first year to just 80-odd in the second. The hardest year for a stallion is his third year at stud - he's been away from the racecourse for 3 years and he has yet to sell significant numbers to gauge his popularity.

    I'd have to look at Pour Moi's pedigree in more detail, but I'd suspect Camelot would be more popular based on his wide ranging distance ability. The question over the St Leger as a "stallion" race has been answered somewhat by the success of Sixties Icon, but my gut feeling is that they'll want to run him again after the race to "prove" he's not just a stayer.
     
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  12. GGW

    GGW Well-Known Member

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    PN, as you say First season is crucial. Would Coolmore want Camelot up against Frankel in the first season sire battle?
     
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  13. PNkt

    PNkt Well-Known Member

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    Competition for mares doesn't seem to affect the top end of the market. Breeders' are looking for different things: some will be purposely looking to get some Galileo blood into their bloodstock band, others will be after more speed than stamina, etc, and price will also be a factor. Coolmore can't justify a fee anywhere near that of Frankel's likely fee for Camelot so those with shallower pockets will be drawn to the less expensive stallion.
     
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  14. GGW

    GGW Well-Known Member

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    How important is it to be leading first season sire?
     
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  15. Bluesky9

    Bluesky9 Philosopher

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    Are there any surprises in the last 5 or 6 years princess? in as much as a stallion who may not have been covered in glory on the track but is producing winners? Who would you say are the names to watch for with regard initial success ?
     
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  16. GGW

    GGW Well-Known Member

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    New Approach is clearly one to watch.
     
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  17. PNkt

    PNkt Well-Known Member

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    It's not that important to be leading 1st season sire, though of course it helps! It s more important to get good sales results with your first yearlings and follow it up with a good percentage of winners from the first crop.
    Stallions get written off very quickly these days, if a stallion hasn't produced a Group winner by the time his first crop come to the end of their 3yo season, he's in trouble as no one will want to take a chance in him at the sales or at stud the next year.

    The stand-out shock of this year has been Sixties Icon. A St Leger winner, he has never stood for a fee of more than £6,000 and was considered by many to be another national hunt prospect. However, he is one of the leading 1st season sires with 8 winners from 13 runners to date.

    Sakhee's Secret is getting going with his first 2yos now too.

    To get a good idea of which stallions are expected to do well with their first runners, watch the results at the yearling sales.
     
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  18. QuarterMoonII

    QuarterMoonII Economist

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    In the ante-post market for the Champion Stakes, Sir Henry Cecil’s colt is currently 1/5 favourite. The bookies have (quite rightly) already decided that Frankel will stay ten furlongs and will scare off many of the field. At least that means that the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes over the mile will be an open race.

    I would not read too much into Camelot holding entries for these prestigious races. I am of the opinion that he will not face the older generation this year. He will go to Doncaster and then be put away for next season. Frankel will be gone so he will be aimed at the top ten and twelve furlong events, including the Arc. So long as a better three-year-old does not come along in 2013 and Camelot trains on, he could potentially go unbeaten as a four year old.
     
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  19. TopClass

    TopClass Well-Known Member

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    Is it harsh of me to look at Camelot and ask what the hell he has beaten?


    At the moment it is round about the most piss-weak 3 year old season I have ever seen.



    He must surely have a pop at the 4 Y O crop to measure himself.
     
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  20. Zenyatta

    Zenyatta Active Member

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    No.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    <cheers>
     
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