As Miggins said Instead of being a man and saying "yes, you are right, I stand corrected, FTL is possible, as scientist have shown"' you try and nit pick. Pointless talking or 'debating' with you as you continue to argue when shown you're wrong. I have been saying that to you all year
The problem with you Fan, is that you don't actually understand people's replies to you. You fail to comprehend why you're wrong. There's absolutely no contradiction between rejecting all current theistic claims as unproven and not claiming that god doesn't exist. To use the judicial example, when a jury finds a defendant not guilty they're not actually saying that he didn't commit the crime, just that it wasn't proven beyond reasonable doubt that he did. You're claiming that not only a god exists, but that he's the only god and it's the one that you worship. That's fine, now prove it or I'm not going to believe it. The same applies to Krege. You don't understand that his preliminary findings don't actually contain any data. They're just claims. He hasn't released any data. Ever. That seems fine to you, but when a similar study is done, alternate claims are made and no data is provided for them, you dismiss it. I dismiss both and go back to the ton of other evidence that says you're wrong, including the Polish study which utterly refutes Krege's claims. You just believe one obviously biased guy, because it suits your bigoted view. Your 6m claim is from a neo-Nazi site. That's not backing up anything. Would you like me to go to a similar site and get their opinions on Islam? I doubt you'd go along with those with no other evidence. If the claim exists in Jewish scripture, then it should be the easiest thing in the world to find a reference to it on another site. You can't, yet this doesn't seem to bother you. As for your Semite claims, this is just more question dodging and semantics. You know exactly what it means, but you attempt to defend your bigotry by hiding behind more tired crap. Your ignorant hate-mongering is just sad. You believe what you want to believe and continue to spout the same gibberish, despite having witnessed it being exposed as nothing more than the scared lies of the biased, time and again. Read a book, for ****'s sake.
squirm squirm, deflect deflect etc etc Problem is you contradict yourself so many times its difficult to know what you believe or are saying. On one hand yo say you are atheist and reject any claims for God. Then to another poster you DONT claim God doesnt exist. We have already discussed atheism and its meaning. Its a doctrine that there is NO deity, to claim there might be or not sure is not atheism. Krege is simple. He 'claims' he went on to a site and found nothing. subsequent 'researchers' have gone on the site and produced nothing. We already know the figures for auschwitz were grossly exaggerated based on 'evidence' and witness testimony etc. No reason therefore to conclude that as nothing has been found then maybe this too was exaggerated. You dont accept kreges 'lack of report' yet provided Colls as 'evidence (oops! remember?) who has nothing. I accept her 'no report' YOU are being hypocritical You claimed I didnt answer your question regarding the 6m. I maintained that I gave you the quote and the reference. You tried to say I didnt, however then said I did. I have asked you numerous times to explain the fascination with 6m dead from the early 1900's to the speach by the Israeli PM. you have constantly continued to skirt/avoid/deflect from those questions. Incidentally I asked these questions first and promised to give you the rference again after you answer Anyhow you uyourself have admitted I gave you the reference, now how about answering teh questions posed? As for using certain sites for opinions on Islam, go for it. Others have done and i have answered them and corrected where they needed correcting. As I have maintained from the very first time IF i cant answer a question or find the answer then my faith is weak. I dont care what website its off. Neo Nazi/sam shamoun, whatever. Its you who thinks because certain people have said something then it shouldnt be used. Which should be against your proinciples if you truly are a follower of science, as you claim. Incidentally there are a lot of people like Richard Wright who agree with me on investigating Treblinka and they are not neo nazi. Just as those Jewish scholars, who revised the aushwitz figures from 4m to less than 1m, are not. You are the one who calls me anti semite. My answer to you is that I am more semite than the european Jews killed in ww2 and the current occupiers of Israel. Look up the meaning of semite and there is your proof. You say I am ignorant and a hatemonger, I say look up the meaning of ignorant and the 'proof' you provided and back tracked on and there is your ignorance as for hatemonger, again look at the definition. You will find that it is you who rsponds to others about me in a derogatory manner, whereas I keep the responses to you I like the read a book bit , I do its called the Quran. you ought to try books instead of looking for arguments on wikki and google. Also get a dictionary to get the definition for atheist and agnostic I leave you with this thought (I am assuming you are not homosexual here) I dont drink alcohol, quit smoking, dont womanise, gamble because I am Muslim and Allah tells me not to. These are lets say what most see as 'fun' things. The same Allah tells me homosexuality is a sin and this is the only/deciding factor in me not contemplating it and disliking it. As it please my creator You on the other hand follow 'man made' law and are atheist, you probably part take in most of the 'fun' things highlighted above as 'man made' law says its ok. The same man made law says so is homosexuality now if you dont part take its because you are a hypocrite and are discriminating. So get out and find yourself a bloke having done so I might take you seriously Of course if you are gay (and Jewish) then it kind of makes sense why you get so riled up
You can repeat the same, tired old bollocks as many times as you like, but it doesn't make it right. I neither squirm nor deflect on anything, you're just not smart enough to understand what I'm saying. I don't believe in any gods. That's atheism. I'm not a close-minded, intolerant bigot though, so I'm open to the evidence that anyone might have for one existing. Anything's possible, but the current evidence doesn't point to the existence of any deities. It's called intellectual honesty. You may have heard of it. Krege produced absolutely **** all. He made claims that simply aren't true, as we have pictures from the time that prove that he's wrong. You believe him though, for the simple reason that you want to. He makes claims that you find appealing, so you go with them. You still haven't given me a reference in Jewish scripture for the 6m, despite claiming that you have and claiming that I've agreed that you have. You posted a link to a neo-Nazi site, which you still refuse to discuss, yet you can't point to where this figure is in the actual scripture itself, for some reason. Another claim which doesn't hold up to any scrutiny, but which you want to believe, so you do. The reason that you're not afraid of claims about Islam is because you don't believe in facts, anyway. Anything that I could use, regardless of it's source, would be ignored in favour of your personal opinion and however you choose to 'interpret' the truth. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be precise about history, but you just want to try to claim that the holocaust never happened for reasons of faith, so you side with scum in order to do so. You start with your bias and try to work the facts around it and if they don't fit, then you look for someone that says what you want to hear and agree with them. Going back to an older definition of anti-Semitism is ludicrous semantics. The original use was actually for languages, so I suppose an anti-Semite would be opposed to the speaking of them. We all know what it means now and you're a glaring example of it. Quite amusing that you couldn't even finish the sentence describing how you keep your responses to me...? If it was supposed to say 'civil' or 'reasonable' then I'm not surprised that you choked on it. Perhaps I should have said, "Read more than one book"? It might expand your horizons a little. It would explain a lot if that was the only one that you ever read, though. Your closing thought explains a lot. You simply don't think for yourself. I decide myself what I'd like to do and what's enjoyable or not. You get told what to do and just go along with it, palming off all responsibility for those decisions upon someone else. Your own hypocrisy sneaked through via that little sentence, though. You quit smoking. Didn't listen to Allah with that one, then? Do you think it's haram or makruh, by the way? Why would somebody that doesn't find men attractive want to have sex with them? Is this why you're so anti-gay? You'd really like to **** a few blokes, but Allah's stopping you? I defend others because it's the right thing to do. You're probably aware of the quote from Martin Niemoller, a German clergyman who suffered under your mates the Nazis, but I'll post it anyway. First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
squirm squirm etc etc I shouldnt respond point by point, because in a few months you will have changed your mind anyway. I see you are claiming you are atheist again claiming no God I take it you 'claim' different things depending on who you are speaking to, to miggins you claimed to be agnostic as you DONT claim God doesnt exist. There is no 'end' to that sentence. I simply keep my responses to YOU. whereas you respond to others about me. Those pictures prove nothing, as I said if the 4m can be revised so can any other 'testimonies'. Your 'proof' of Colls (oops!) confirms there is nothing there The 6m scripture and quote was in the reference that you yourself have said I provided, just as I had TOLD you I had done. You still fail to address the focus on the 6m. any chance you can address it? The reason I am not afraid of claims on Islam is because you have nothing. i actually studied it. I believe there have been a lot of holocausts over the years. Some worse than the WW2 one. I question them too as do many people, difference being you can with the others. of course if you dont agree that 4m becoming <1m is quite suprising then you cant claim to look at things scientifically. semite is the same meaning today as it was before. Its only anti semite that seems to be used exclusively for Jews. You love to ask for proof/evidence/definition etc. I am just saying that I cannot be antisemetic in the true sense as I am more of a semite than the Jews of Europe and those in Israel, FACT I read a lot of books and then question all I learn, you should try it even with google and wikki I used to smoke as I was unaware it was haram, I believe it to be haraam so stopped. I dont see how you think that is hypocricy. I never told others to stop. I do now as i found out. No difference in how I pray or how i no combine prayers if travelling etc. I learn new things all the time, question them find the evidence and if it is proven then adopt it. No different than cutting out gluten once you find out it is bad for you. Reason is simple I have studied and believe Islam to be the absolute truth (something you dont say about science or any of your beliefs), so its no suprise that I would follow and obey that truth. you say you are a follower of science yet choose not to apply the scientific formulae to things like Treblinka. Which is a bit like your arguments you pick and choose bits you think you have an answer to and ignore other points eg the fascination with 6m through the ages. As for the 'not attractive' part are you saying you never slept with a munter? (although I suppose this might be a daft question as you dont come across the type who gets many women). would you have sex with a lady boy who looked likej a good looking woman until you explored below? If not why not? is it homophobia? because clearly you 'accept' it, you think its discrimination/bigotted etc to say homosexuality is bad. As for me, even before i started practising I found the thought of sex with a bloke as unnatural and quite frankly it disgusted me. So did having sex with the local bike, or a really fat chick etc I can be honest and say that without worrying about being labelled with whatever tag is appropriate, can you? Dont make me laugh about defending others. This is about you and trying to be clever or 'win' or whatever. Its nothing as noble as defending . You criticise all things Islam and protect/defend all things Jewish, claearly an agenda. Me I have a view on everything and dont care if people dont like it. The only real thing is proof otherwise and as yet I dont see any from you That quote is nothing new. Read the hadith about the 3 bulls, its basically the same message but written 1400 years ago. However you may not appreciate it as it was written by a muslim
This is pointless, Fan. I point out where and exactly why you're wrong and you basically answer with a flat denial and a non-sequitur. I ask for evidence and you say that you've already provided it and are somehow unable to do so again, despite never having done so in the first place. Both ridiculous and utterly dishonest. I will point out one thing for you, though. The story of the three bulls and the lion? Where does it appear in the Hadith? I only ask because it's one of Aesop's fables, so it would appear to predate Mohammed by over a thousand years, at least.
2 things here. Firstly 'origins' dont necessarily make a difference. When The Prohet related a story (or parable) from Abraham/moses/Jesus time it still becomes a 'hadith' as hadith means 'a piece of information conveyed either in a small quantity or large'. Secondly the hadith was the 3 bulls and a wolf, however this particular 'fable' was attributed to Aesop in thelate 1800's from what I know. There is dispute to the actual existence of Aesop and whether the hundreds of fables attributed to him was just convenience rather than real
You linked to a claim on a neo-Nazi site. That's both ridiculous and not even vaguely accurate. They claim that it's from this quote on the Liberty Bell: Leviticus 25:10, "Proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof." Yeah. Spot on. I see it now.... Where's the 6m in that, Fan? There's not a single contradiction there, Fan. What are you talking about? Well aware of that. I'm sure that you're aware of the way that they're compiled, too. Aesop probably existed, but it's doubtful that he wrote many of his fables. They all seem to be folk tales that are ancient and have similar parables within each culture, with some suggestion that he took a number of them from the Egyptians and others from the Greeks. Your attempt to attribute them to an Islamic author doesn't seem to be based upon anything, though.
who knows if he existed or not, I seem to agree with the 'he didnt' crowd as that seems to be the stronger argument IMO However the particular fable you attributed to him was linked to him in 1881. Doubt it came from him. I know the Prophet said it as it has been written about in various texts. Teh message behind it is what is important. I never said teh Prophet was the first to say that particular tale, just that the message from what you quoted has been given before.
PNP: you are banging your head against the rock of ages, my friend. There is no point debating with religious fudamentalists as they have The Truth and therefore have no interest in actual verity. TFWNN claims he questions all he learns from books, but he will not question the one book he should question the most. Religion is hollow succour for people well versed in science - which actually improves the world and advances the human race in all ways. Religion has given no knowledge to the world and never will. There is no valid argument otherwise. Let him have his mediaeval death cult, and forget about attempting to educate him: it will not work. Sad, but true. Religion, despite its claim of being about love, is divisive and a source of bigotry and hatred. I thank God (allah, yahweh, vishnu, Odin, wotan, Robbie Fowler, etc.) everyday for being an atheist! P.S. Funny thread, peeps. Nessie approves! P.P.S. Have you seen that Indian guy who's going to get arrested for showing a Catholic miracle (weeping statue) was merely a leaking sewage pipe! Religion: what is good for? Delusion and dishonesty, it seems.
That's where the 6m is supposed to come from, Fan. There is no 'you shall return minus 6m' quote. Yes, really. You just keep quoting non-contradictory comments, for some reason. This is all completely false. Nothing has a creator, in the sense that you mean. The Kalam Cosmological Argument that you keep relying on falls at the first hurdle. Your own belief (things come from pre-existing things) is actually an argument against your own god. You use special pleading to try and make an exception. So I'm sure you know where that story features then, right? It's not really relevant whether Aesop existed or not, in my opinion. The fables attributed to him were almost certainly not original, anyway. I'll leave aside your argument about whether or not Mohammed ever said it or not and just concentrate on your original claim. "However you may not appreciate it as it was written by a muslim". Apparently not, eh?
I know, it's just funny watching the rock stumbling around in the dark as a result. I've had Fan siding himself with neo-Nazis, National Front members and American white separatists so far, so it's interesting to see which new depths he'll plumb to justify his bigotry.
