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Why are England so poor a ball retention

Discussion in 'England' started by 2xwdcslayer, Jun 25, 2012.

  1. TheJudeanPeoplesFront

    TheJudeanPeoplesFront Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you chaps need to check your facts. UEFA has employed the system for many years, England introduced it the season before last.

    Vimhawk particularly needs to get his facts straight to produce anything approaching an argument on his basis. Most of our squad played around the 20-25 game mark out of 38, which is comparatively few when you consider the history of the England team. Liverpool, you'll notice, signed a number of the English squad, and they finished in their worst league position for seasons. Downing with the honour of 0 assists and 0 goals.

    You mention defenders, but that's erroneous because that's the only aspect of our team the fans and media have been praising. And you'll notice they are the positions where passing isn't the first priority in the premier league. No wonder Lecott/Terry/Johnson gets games...

    As for "most of the England players were first choice"?

    Carroll, Milner, Defoe, BUTLAND, Kelly, Jones, the OX, Walcott... That's 8/23... If your "most" is simply "the majority", well great, that gives us 11 players and four subs... And that's before we consider how ****e some of these players did for their club (Henderson, Downing), or even talk about the fact one of them plays for a Championship club (Green). That would make 11/23 players... So now we have a full team and 1 sub... Wooo...

    You think that's the same for any of the other top Nations? You are dreaming/I want to smoke what you're on!
     
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  2. Pete Doherty

    Pete Doherty New Member

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    Basically, Parker's ****e and is never in space.

    We play 442 with no link between midfield and attack. Rooney tried to provide this, but due to lack of other options Italy could surround Rooney meaning we had no other option but Joe Hart.

    Pass and move isn't difficult. It doesn't require top class players. It just requires a change in attitude from England.
     
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  3. stopthepress

    stopthepress Member

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    It's because they're not relaxed enough. Partly due to the intensity of the English game, and partly due to mental and physical tiredness from running around so much (which also puts England at a disadvantage in penalty shootouts, if the opponents are less knackered).

    You can see it in the first touch. When a Spanish player controls the ball, he does it with a soft foot and draws his foot back slightly to cushion the ball. But because "softness" of any kind is not allowed in the English game, the first touch is always heavy, which means that the pass has to be played in a hurry if the player is under pressure.

    On the rare occasions when Pirlo was under pressure last night, the quality of his first touch enabled him to turn quickly and effortlessly glide away from his opponent. English players simply do not have this option.
     
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  4. TheBallWinner

    TheBallWinner Member

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    Coaching from a young age... Also the tactics that Roy played weren't exactly designed for that- late in the game they tried to break and pass into space but nobody was outside their own final third.
     
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  5. stopthepress

    stopthepress Member

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    No they wouldn't , because they'd struggle under pressure the same as other English players do.

    Carrick has proved this in numerous European ties, and when Scholes gets tired he makes rash tackles.
     
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  6. Schumacher

    Schumacher Member

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    Would do alot better then Gerrard,Parker and Henderson thats for sure. Apart from this season just gone Carrick is normaly very good in Europe.
     
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  7. Keith Fit

    Keith Fit Well-Known Member

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    In every first world country performing at the forefront of sport, there are colleges of sporting excellence. If the USA gave a rats behind about "soccer", they'd be the best team in the world because rather than dampening sporting talent, they nurture it. Germany are consistently at the top because they have over 40 colleges of sporting excellence. Then there's the flipside, the second or third world, where there's such a commercial shortfall that playing football is your only chance to get out of the poop you live in. That's not only Brazil and South America in general, but also Africa, and to some extent Southern Europe.

    In the UK, you do it as a hobby, for fun. Education comes first, the two are mutually exclusive and so the priorities of the kid in question are split and its virtually impossible to create waves of decent players when you're relying on the cut-throat world of professional football to bring the kids through. How many of us know someone whose career was ended with that first ligament injury? The clubs don't want to waste a penny on someone who MIGHT be good enough; they want guarantees. The list of binned off young lads is doubtless hundreds of times longer than the list of those who "made it".
     
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  8. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    Who would you say that was in the Man United team? You might argue that they weren't successful last season because they didn't win it but in many ways they were a bit unfortunate and were capable of some great football. I know Scholes has been mentioned but he only started 14 league games for United and Nani had an up and down season. In my opinion, Carrick and Rooney contributed and made the difference as much as any player you named.
     
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  9. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    I put a question mark on it because it was a question, I wasn't sure but yes, I was a season out if you treat it as a statement. As far as I know, UEFA's rule is for the number of players in the squad but you were talking about them being backup and just there to fill the quota which doesn't stack up as Hart, Johnson, Terry, Lescott, Cole, Walcott, Gerrard, Parker, Rooney, Jagielka and Baines all start regularly for their clubs which is nothing to do with quotas and most of the rest of the squad are important members of the squad who genuinley compete for starting positions, playing as much as Torres and in some cases Fabregas. I don't know how the other teams did with regards to injuries but we had first team regulars for their clubs in Walker, Cahill, Barry, Lampard and Bent all out off the top of my head.
     
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  10. redconn

    redconn Active Member

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    no they really wouldn't

    Roy's tactics require good tackling skills and backs to the wall defending.

    They would get cut in two.
     
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  11. sweet fa

    sweet fa Member

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    Point taken, but (as always :) ) a couple of counter points:

    They were playing the premier league, full of non technical english teams. In europe theyve had their worst year in god knows how long. You could put this down to a blip in form, i put it down to the english disease - they were passed off the park by supposedly inferior opposition.

    The truly great man utd teams were full of (guess where im going here?) technically brilliant players, be it ronaldo, scholes, tevez, rooney (5 years ago), Even back in the day when english football worked they didnt win the title until cantona came along...
     
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  12. TheJudeanPeoplesFront

    TheJudeanPeoplesFront Well-Known Member

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    Walcott and Cahill weren't first choice for either Arsenal or Chelsea last season. Theo was used purely as a bit of pace when the Arsenal squad had tried the pretty-pretty tippy-tappy, while Cahill was reserve for Terry and even Luiz...

    The quota exists for the squad correct, and the players I mentioned were absolutely back-ups this season, not first team starters. Unless Butland's loan spell counts as first team.

    As I say, the majority of players you have mentioned, and that have come out of the Euros with genuine credit, are defenders who have limited passing ability. Ball retention wise I doubt we'll ever see a Puyol/Coloccini type defender, so we do well with the tall, brutish lads, and absolutely they are first choice in a premier league where defenders are not required to play like Puyol or Colo (though the latter is class there)... Ball retention wise, you're talking Parker, Gerrard, Lampard, Barry... Lampard wasn't even first choice for the vast majority of last season, and has never been a passing master, but a clinical midfield poacher. Gerrard suffers his usual injury diminished season. Parker had a good season, ball retention wise he's not great, but he breaks up play (PFA team of the year, I believe). Barry? Well Man City fans tend to be split on his performances, and so are England fans. They all tend to play in teams where their inability to pass (though Gerrard was fabulous this tournament for me) is masked by foreign players who can.

    Ultimately, the absolute trump to anyone who says the nation has the talent but lacks direction, is simply to look around and see how many of our number play high level oversees football? Joe Cole half a season, that's it. The top nations have players at top clubs around the world, and the current World and Euro champs have surplus talent like Arteta lighting up enough leagues to truly emphasize how barren our resources are. If we truly had the resources, Real Madrid or Barcelona would surely be interested? Perhaps they have been put off by greedy Owen and crippled Woodgate, or more likely they know the technical limitations...
     
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  13. No Kane No Gain

    No Kane No Gain Well-Known Member

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    Walcott started 32 out of 38 league games for Arsenal, only 4 of their players started more league games than him so you're miles off there.

    Fair enough on Cahill, although I'd say he was competing with Luiz for his place rather than back up and Lampard was Chelsea's first choice after the first few months of the season when AVB tried to drop him.
     
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  14. theHotHead

    theHotHead New Member

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    You ruined it by putting Carrick there. He doesn't know the meaning of pass and move so it would fall down when it got to him.

    Look at the attributes of players who dominate the pass and move game, Pirlo, Xavi, Scholes. They are busy on the ball .. thinking 2 steps ahead, they know what is around them immediately. Carrick is composed on the ball but that doesn't mean he can play keep ball, its all about movement and he is too slow. When you look at other teams that can play pass and move there are always options for the simple pass, thats what makes it so effective, but English players, Gerrard included, are always looking to launch the ball long at the first opportunity.

    So .. you play a delightful 50yd diagonal pass to Rooney's toe, nobody is there to support him because you have bypassed the midfield so Rooney is isolated and inevitably loses the ball because of lack of support or a **** first touch. Stop playing counter attacking football for a bloody start and lets make angles for each other and attack as a team instead of a bunch of individuals. They do it in training so why can't they do it in matches ??
     
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  15. theHotHead

    theHotHead New Member

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    No he wouldn't .. he would've been "too small". Seen that problem so many times with people I know. Dont forget he had a growth hormone deficiency as well. Glenn Hoddle has also commented on the fact that English clubs/managers are too quick to dismiss skilful players for being to small.
     
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  16. theHotHead

    theHotHead New Member

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    Because the English method of blood and guts football is not the way forward, it hasn't got us anything so why continue with it ?

    anyone remember England V Wales at Wembley ? England got played off the park, Wales played some lovely keep ball. Ok, they didn't have much of a cutting edge but if Wales can do it, why can't England ? Gary Speed instilled this style of football into the squad in a short space of time, there is no point England relying on what they are good at because good teams will mug them off for fun. The time for change is now, lose the old tactics and prepare to play good football.
     
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  17. Schumacher

    Schumacher Member

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    I would have Carrick more to sit in front of the back 4 like what he does at Man Utd and with Scholes and Wilshere ahead of him. Even Cleverley is better at pass and move then every player in the England squad.
     
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  18. redconn

    redconn Active Member

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    who is Cleverly?
     
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  19. Poolliver LallanaDelRey

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    Oh dear...
     
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  20. Itchen North Matt

    Itchen North Matt Active Member

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    This is the sort of medieval attitude that stifles any sort of progress and not juust in football. As you say, we are not Spain and I for one wouldn't want us copying their style down to the last letter. To compete on the World stage though, we need to follow the examples set by Spain, Germany, Holland etc and get ourselves up to date. As it is, our old generation of football dinosaurs are creating a new generation of technically stunted players who will grow up to be the next lot of dinosaurs. The unpalateable truth is that blood, sweat and tears alone will win us **** all if we can't string two passes together. The only way we'll make players good enough to win anything is if we revolutionise the way we work at grassroots level. From testimonies of both players and coaches, it sounds like very little has changed in the last 40 years. Sorry mate, but I don't think there is a quick fix for this and the best we can do is impliment the long term strategy pronto, so it's bringing home results by about 2020. Improving is about changing attitude as much as it is about investment and grassroots coaches should be thinking more about improving players rather than winning trophies.
     
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