No mate. Personally I think Frankel can concede 11 pounds and a beating to Camelot over 10f., but that's just an opinion. You certainly have every right to question the quality of Frankel's opposition and to also question of the lack of a decent race time. As you've stated, Camelot seems a decent animal and as such, should not be written off out of hand just because he's up against Frankel. We've seen Frankel have an outstanding three year old season, but there is no certainty that he can do it all again, and do it as well.
I must say that one of the disappointments of the Flat season thus far for this correspondent has been the unambitious campaigning of Frankel by his connections. I would love to see a Frankel v Camelot clash but must say I think it highly, highly unlikely – the only possible, unless things change, would be on ‘Champions Day’ in either the Champion Stakes or QEII. Racing needs great clashes and rivalries like these rather than the current scenario, on the Flat, where we see Group 1 clashes regularly featuring just a handful of opponents. I would love to see Frankel’s connection become much more proactive and actively seek out races and rivals and challenge them accordingly. Also the policy of only running him within a 100 or so miles of Newmarket is not exactly a positive move and the startling fact is that at the end of his racing career Frankel is unlikely to have run beyond these shores. I never bought into the whole Sea The Stars as the greatest ever package but one thing that horse did was win ‘top table’ races in 3 countries which is no mean feat whilst my own fave of recent years, Raven’s Pass, of course, greatly enriched his own record by winning the ‘Breeders Cup Classic’. Only being asked to compete in one small country is going to be detrimental to Frankel’s overall record as he never had the opportunity to ‘come, saw and conqueror’. I can’t understand why at the very least prizes like the ‘Irish Champion’ or ‘Prix Du Moulin’ aren’t being considered. Also why aren’t the racing authorities doing so much more to encourage a Frankel v Camelot clash (or even a Frankel v Black Caviar one)?!? Neither Frankel or Camelot’s owners are anywhere near the old poorhouse and if they were challenged to each put up £5 million with a ‘winner takes all’ bounty the prize I couldn’t see either resisting as to do so would be a huge sign of weakness. Furthermore, you can guarantee that the purse could be enhanced by at least a further 7 figures due to sponsors being so keen to ‘jump aboard’. So come on BHA get in on, say I!
I think it's a cracking good thread Ron, some very interesting debate and whilst the subject clearly stirs the emotions, I think you are entitled to ask the questions you have asked. For what it's worth, I think Frankel's greatest asset is the ability to put in 3 very fast consecutive furlongs, this is his deadly weapon as it draws the sting of his rivals. In the Guineas he did it early (under a motionless jockey sitting with a tight rein it should be observed), in the Sussex Stakes he did it down the home straight and broke Canford Cliffs' heart. If he settles well over 10F and can put it in at the business end of the race he should be just as effective at that trip. I guess the only question mark would be, at what trip would the "stamina" part of the race sap his strength to such a degree that he would be unable to put in those devastatingly fast 3 (or maybe 2) furlongs??
The only was I can possibly see Frankel being beat, would be for something to set a scorching pace and then maybe another take over. They have to try taking some serious sting out of those legs. This probably won't happen. I think he just has to sit on them, then let down with a couple to go.
I don't think it is fare to campare the two as they race over different distances. Camelot won the Guineas despite the fact that it was too short for him. He is a true mile and a half horse and if he raced Frankel over 10F everything favours Frankel. If it was over 12f everything would favour Camelot. So to put it simply I think Frankel would win over 10f and Camelot 12f.
Sorry Ron. I suspect my post came across in a negative manner and that was not it's intention. My point is that I don't agree or understand your points about Frankel's supposed weakness. You frequently refer to the fact that he has yet to run a fast absolute time when I would argue that a horse's ability is just one of many factors that contribute to a fast time. Similarly you point out his win at Royal Ascot as being unimpressive and a sign of weakness where as I would look at it with almost the opposite view in that it was remarkable that he managed to win at all. I think it's a great thread.
[video=youtube;d2FT4FprxDg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=d2FT4FprxDg[/video]
Speaking from my own personal opinon, I think the main reason Frankel does not travel very far is due to his temperament. When I have spoken to Sir Henry's secretary, she has told me that he is very much a creature of habit and any change from his normal routine can cause problems. Indeed his injury happened during his first piece of work on grass, after a winter/early spring on the all-weather gallops. I do not buy into the theory that only horses that travel can be called great. For instance, ZARKAVA never raced outside of Paris, indeed 6 of her 7 races were at Longchamp, but she is still consider a great horse.
[Bover the 10f this could be the race of a lifetime in champion stakes ! Frankel ! Camelot ! Cirrus d aigles Carlton house excelebration if all 4 turned up I would have Camelot to win in the WFA Carlton house might need further with excelebration being 3rd or 4th !
