Well I thought he was impressive. A truly run 12f and he cruised past and won going away without any fuss. He couldn't have done much more to be honest, regardless of the opposition. Let's face it STS never beat anything special and look at the accolades he enjoys. He still has to do it against the older horses but he's done nothing wrong so far; better than I expected. It's very difficult assessing just how good a horse is when he's head and shoulders above what appears to be a mediocre bunch.
The reason Frankel is raised Dex is that he is the current champion horse in training over a mile and expected to be upped to 10f, this means that any horse that is muted as a fellow great will automatically added to the picture that contains the current champ. It's a bit like boxers, if a really good looking up and coming fighter wins the European title undefeated people will automatically speculate how would he get on against Klitschko. The other reason is that Camalot is very comparable as he is a Guineas winner and so likely to be pretty smart at 10f, and so a meeting is far more likely than with a horse like Black Caviar. The reason we are so keen to bring Camalot into the Frankel picture you have supplied yourself by remarking how Frankel is having to take on the same horse's he has already beaten. As race fans we want something to provide a new test and we see Camalot, who looks very good, as that possible test. You are right Dex in as much as my juxtiposing a showdown with Frankel in the Champion with a poor Arc is making quite an assumption about a race for which it's real contenders have yet to come into view, but it was more to do with stating that the Arc should not be seen as the be all and end all as some Arc renewels are poor and there is a possibility that more kudos could be accumalated by defeating a horse with a reputation like Frankel in a less high profile race. To finish i would say objectivity is here on this forum in abundance but when people look objectively they quite often see different things and that is what forms the forum, and the debate it hosts. A lack of agreement is not a lack of objectivity. It's what make the forum what it is and this post is about everyones view, i just got the impression Dex from the wording of your response which included that you were chuckling, disappointed and sad that you were not entirely happy with a simple difference of view. I am not trying to pick a fight Dex just responding sincerely (and hopefully intelligently) to your post that referenced my earlier post.
I have to say that I agree with KS again. Camelot has not proven that he is a superstar yet. My expectation is that his official rating will be similar to that attained by Sea The Stars at Epsom – but Sea The Stars improved on that subsequently and I think he put up his best official performance in the Irish Champion Stakes. Camelot has to keep improving and producing the goods, something which we followers of the sport as more than just a gambling medium hope that he does. No matter whether Camelot does complete the Triple Crown (last completed by Oh So Sharp in 1985 not as incorrectly attributed to Nijinsky in 1970), I would not want to back him for the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe three weeks later. Nijinsky tried the same as yet unachieved double in a smaller timeframe and just failed. Camelot’s style of racing is being held up towards the rear, a tactic which does not work very often at Longchamp. Would I want to be passing more than a dozen of my rivals in the last couple of furlongs on the Bois de Boulogne? No.
As much as as I admire your appreciation of Shergar KS, He was good but nothing special IMO. He beat a bunch of donkeys in his Derby and was thoroughly exposed in the St Leger. He is glorified to the hilt because of his winning distance at Epsom, Yet Workforce broke the track record in 2010 and is considered one of the poorest Derby winners of all time. To say he is the greatest 10-12 furlong horse you've ever seen is quite remarkable seeing as though Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars, Montjeu, Dubai Millenium, Peintre Celebre, Galileo have all raced after him and I'd have every single one of them above him in my list of greats... The St Leger looks a penalty kick for Camelot, He was eased down going to the line at Epsom and he won going away. Thought Worthy on paper looked the biggest danger leading up to the Leger in September but would anyone really back him against Camelot in the Leger after TW was dismantled at Epsom. Who else is there lurking in the wings? I don't consider this a vintage year, We have a vintage horse (Camelot) in a poor year and obviously results are showing that espcially over the first two classics. Not one representative from Stoute, Cecil, Godolphin must show that. The French have hardly got any world beaters as not one showed up at Epsom yet they sent all there best three year olds to Chantilly in possibly the worst run Group 1 all year in a packed out field. As I said not a vintage year
Nijinsky did well to even win the St Leger suffering ringworm in the build up, I thought looking back he was awfully unlucky in the Arc. Unstylishly he was given too much to do from Piggott and even though he made up the ground he was just pegged back, I thought it was a good run considering he had suffered ring-worm, Took the St Leger and then headed to Longchamp. Does anyone believe Camelot as the same constitution as the great Nijinsky? Its hard to say, He was relatively light raced as a juvenile, He's had 4 starts in his career and after the Derby it didnt look like He'd had a hard race at all. He could have stood in that winners circle all day if He'd been asked it was as easy as you liked. It depends the route they head with him, I'd love to see him in the Eclipse but I've a feeling he'll go Irish Derby, St Leger, Prix De L'Arc De Triomphe and then out to grass with the ladies...
Istabraq.....Maybe you should actually do some research before you post such drivel.* Shergar was by far the best middle distance horse europe has ever seen, and to say he beat donkeys is ridiculous. Was Glint Of Gold the horse who finished runner up to Shergar in the derby a donkey? He went on to win no less than 6 G1 races after being hammered by Shergar in the Derby. Cut Above won the 1981 St Leger, and he was a horse who Shergar had beaten by 4 lengths in the Irish Derby, a race the commentator described as an exercise canter, that's how easy it was for Shergar, he could have won that race by 20 had lester pressed any buttons.* The only thing that found out Shergar in the Leger was the trip, he just did not get home on bad ground. As for your little list of horses, the only horse I'd rank close to Shergar is Dubai Millenium, though he was a 8-10f specialist, the likes of Galileo Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars, and the rest, would not have seen which way Shergar went.* Shergar over 12f had a devastating turn of foot, and he could sustain that top gear for longer than any other horse I've witnessed. He went for home in the Derby with half a mile to go, and he just kept pulling further and further clear, and still scored by 10 lengths, despite being eased for most of the final furlong, normal horses do not win races like that, that's why Shergar still remains the best weve seen *
Workforce one of the poorest Derby winners of all time? Come off it, I'm not saying he's a grade A Derby winner but he's certainly better than most of the winners in the 90s and a fair chunk of the winners from 2003 onwards too.
Workforce's career will always divide opinion, I don't think he was as good as New Approach or Sea The Stars, but I'd rate him above the likes of Pour Moi and Sir Percy. The likes of Motivator and Authorised I'd rate pretty close to Workforce
Shergar Pour Moi never got the chance to show people what he was fully capable of. A case of we will never know how good he could have been.
Hope Sea Bird is not rolling over in his grave. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bar1ssbSmeI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9wX2PEEZ_c&feature=related
[video=youtube;b6Ste_BDSB0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b6Ste_BDSB0[/video]
Pour Moi was a terrible derby winner, one of the worst ever in fact. What did he actually beat? Treasure Beach and Carlton House, and he needed every yard of it to win.* Coolmoore knew he was a poor derby winner, and knew his reputation could only go downwards from there, so they made up some phantom injury, just like the phantom injury of Canford Cliffs, to reserve his reputation.* Some people are stupid enough to think Pour Moi was some sort of flying machine, were as I can see his form prior to the derby was very average, and his form in winning the derby was incredibly average.* What races have any of the beaten horses in last years derby actually won? I don't count 2nd rate races in America either, as we know just how awful the form of turf racing is over there. *
KS, you still arent prattling on about that donkey Glint of gold(6 x Grp 1 but never one England) are you? Didnt you once say that I.Balding rated him higher than Mill reef lol?
You are clearly cracking up in your old age DB, what I said was that Ian Balding regarded him as the 2nd best horse he had ever trained, behind only Mill Reef. He won G1s in France, are we to say French racing is 2nd rate? Is that what your implying?
