What Should Happen To Tonda Eckert Now?

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Tonda's future at the club

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Che’s Godlike Thighs said:
You're not getting what I'm saying.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. But that's because we're both Saints fans.

The rest of the footballing world sees it differently though. Why's it hard for you to understand that?
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I don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks. And I don’t think they really care about us either.

I did see that in your initial post, yes.

Your initial message on this that I replied to then is confused Che.

You say you agree and that I am being biased. But you continually state he is a cheat and that we won games because he cheated.

You said those independently of what the rest of the world thinks, so it came across as that is what you think.

I disagreed with those sentiments.
 
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SR get out of my club said:
I don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks. And I don’t think they really care about us either.

I did see that in your initial post, yes.

Your initial message on this that I replied to then is confused Che.

You say you agree and that I am being biased. But you continually state he is a cheat and that we won games because he cheated.

You said those independently of what the rest of the world thinks, so it came across as that is what you think.

I disagreed with those sentiments.
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Nope. I specifically said he cheated AND we won games. I didn’t say we won BECAUSE he cheated.

But, the difference is largely irrelevant. If our players don’t want that reputation, that’s fair, imo.

Also, I’ve also been using quotation marks with the word ‘cheat’. That should allow you to gauge my own personal view of the ‘crimes’.

EDIT: My bad, I see why you were thrown by my original post. I meant that objectively, not as my own personal view.
 
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Che’s Godlike Thighs said:
Yeah, he wins, but by cheating.

And it’s a bit different having differences in the dressing room caused by tactics, than by something like this.
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Until we know fully how many teams he spied on (we probably won’t ever), it’s difficult to gauge exactly what effect this all has on his ability to coach. I’ve been following this debate with interest and I must admit I read the first line of your post above as you believing he is a cheat.

Arguably the most significant of all his wins was Arsenal and I can’t see any way in which he could have spied on them.

That said, I do believe he may have done it in more games than the 3 he got caught for.
 
Che’s Godlike Thighs said:
You're not getting what I'm saying.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. But that's because we're both Saints fans.

The rest of the footballing world sees it differently though. Why's it hard for you to understand that?
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I’m not sure they do, really. I live in North London, not many Saints fans round here; and I haven’t heard a single Spurs or Arsenal fan express anything but amazement at the severity of our punishment.
 
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Archers Road said:
I’m not sure they do, really. I live in North London, not many Saints fans round here; and I haven’t heard a single Spurs or Arsenal fan express anything but amazement at the severity of our punishment.
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I guess I’m mainly referring to the rest of the Championship/EFL.

Doesn’t surprise me that top 6 Prem fans don’t care.

*(Top 6 or Spurs)
 
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TheRealSaints said:
Until we know fully how many teams he spied on (we probably won’t ever), it’s difficult to gauge exactly what effect this all has on his ability to coach. I’ve been following this debate with interest and I must admit I read the first line of your post above as you believing he is a cheat.

Arguably the most significant of all his wins was Arsenal and I can’t see any way in which he could have spied on them.

That said, I do believe he may have done it in more games than the 3 he got caught for.
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I think he’s an excellent coach. But I also think he is a cheat, in that he broke the rules to gain an advantage.

Whether those rules should actually be in place, is a whole other debate.

As I’ve said, if the players want him in charge, I’m happy. If they don’t, get him out asap.
 
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Were Oxford and Ipswich outside of the remit of Rule 127, and covered just in the 3.4 Rule? Which is deemed unsporting behaviour, that may not be seen by some as cheating as such? There are still so many grey areas not covered by any printed statement in the actual Rule Book. Just manipulated by the EFL to fit their case.
 
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Che’s Godlike Thighs said:
No. I'm being objective, you're being subjective (biased).

The facts: 1. Tonda sent spies to watch and listen to other teams training to glean an advantage. 2. We won a whole load of games.

It doesn't matter what you or I think about his ability to manage a football game (I actually agree with you that he is a fantastic coach). The fact remains, he cheated AND we won games. It's irrelevant if we won those games BECAUSE of the cheating. Those two things can't now be separated. The entire country, and the footballing world sees it that way. And the Saints players rightfully might not want their own reputations tarnished in the way that Tonda's is. He is a 'cheat', and no amount of defending him will change that.

I hope he goes on to prove everyone wrong, and if he does that with us, then even better. But in the here and now, the guy is a cheat. Sorry.
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I don't think it is that black and white though.

He did send spies, but is he a cheat? Technically yes as he/we got caught and breached a rule. Is a manager a cheat if he tells his keeper to fein injury to slow stuff down? that 100% affects the game.
 
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thereisonlyoneno7 said:
I don't think it is that black and white though.

He did send spies, but is he a cheat? Technically yes as he/we got caught and breached a rule. Is a manager a cheat if he tells his keeper to fein injury to slow stuff down? that 100% affects the game.
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Sure. For me I just don’t particularly like any form of cheating. Obviously different forms of cheating are more/less impactful than others, and none of us really know where on the spectrum spying lies, because it isn’t as obvious as time wasting/diving etc.

As much as everyone loves Scienza, the amount of diving he does (cheating) doesn’t sit well with me. Would prefer it was coached out of him, or we just cash in on him. But then again, whoever we replace him with, could likely be just as bad.

It’s become a very rotten game, and the more we all justify it, only exacerbates the problem.
 
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I don't think Scienza does deliberately go down, it's down to equilibrium and often he tries to carry on, off balance, It was similar with players like Grealish they were often fouled but not protected by the referees. A leg breaking challenge is far worse than a dive but isn't classified as cheating.
All down to the individuals perception.
 
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SAINTOSPREY said:
Were Oxford and Ipswich outside of the remit of Rule 127, and covered just in the 3.4 Rule? Which is deemed unsporting behaviour, that may not be seen by some as cheating as such? There are still so many grey areas not covered by any printed statement in the actual Rule Book. Just manipulated by the EFL to fit their case.
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Pretty sure we were charged under 127 for those two games too.

The Ipswich one was on the day of the game I think.
 
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Che’s Godlike Thighs said:
No. I'm being objective, you're being subjective (biased).

The facts: 1. Tonda sent spies to watch and listen to other teams training to glean an advantage. 2. We won a whole load of games.

It doesn't matter what you or I think about his ability to manage a football game (I actually agree with you that he is a fantastic coach). The fact remains, he cheated AND we won games. It's irrelevant if we won those games BECAUSE of the cheating. Those two things can't now be separated. The entire country, and the footballing world sees it that way. And the Saints players rightfully might not want their own reputations tarnished in the way that Tonda's is. He is a 'cheat', and no amount of defending him will change that.

I hope he goes on to prove everyone wrong, and if he does that with us, then even better. But in the here and now, the guy is a cheat. Sorry.
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But correlation ≠ causation.

At the end of the day, morality in football was left at the doorstep decades ago. Bielsa wasn't sacked by Leeds for spying on teams training all season. Yes, he didn't break any EFL rule at the time, but the 'morality' of it is still the same.

If going on 21 game unbeaten runs, in one of the toughest leagues in Europe (outside of the Top 5) was due to watching some training sessions, every manager and first team staff would find a way to skirt the rules.

For now, neutral fans are focusing their efforts on this, whilst turning a blind eye to other forms of cheating (with more tangible evidence of on field advantages).
 
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SaintElliot said:
But correlation ≠ causation.

At the end of the day, morality in football was left at the doorstep decades ago. Bielsa wasn't sacked by Leeds for spying on teams training all season. Yes, he didn't break any EFL rule at the time, but the 'morality' of it is still the same.

If going on 21 game unbeaten runs, in one of the toughest leagues in Europe (outside of the Top 5) was due to watching some training sessions, every manager and first team staff would find a way to skirt the rules.
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Like I said above, as fans it's very difficult for us to know what type of advantage can be gained. But if a rival did it to us, and then beat us, we'd all be annoyed by it.
 
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Che’s Godlike Thighs said:
Like I said above, as fans it's very difficult for us to know what type of advantage can be gained. But if a rival did it to us, and then beat us, we'd all be annoyed by it.
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The mere fact that Tonda complained about some of what footage the spies came back with says that he considered the information to be important to his preparations.
 
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Che’s Godlike Thighs said:
Like I said above, as fans it's very difficult for us to know what type of advantage can be gained. But if a rival did it to us, and then beat us, we'd all be annoyed by it.
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We'd be full of righteous indignation I expect; for at least a week.

How would we have felt, I wonder, if the boot was on the other foot; say we'd lost to Boro, then it was them that got thrown out and us reinstated - only to lose to Hull? I think I'd be embarrassed tbh, far more so than I am now.
 
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Che’s Godlike Thighs said:
I guess I’m mainly referring to the rest of the Championship/EFL.

Doesn’t surprise me that top 6 Prem fans don’t care.

*(Top 6 or Spurs)
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My experience of other fans' opinions (OK a very small sample), is that fans of other clubs, including Portsmouth, are genuinely upset and confused by the severity of the punishment. I suspect that any 'straw poll' of fans of other Championship clubs would show that Middlesbrough fans think we deserve to rot in hell for eternity, but fans of other clubs consider that we have been very harshly treated. This is purely my opinion, and possibly every other human on the planet feels that Southampton's cheating is the worst thing that has happened since the Ice Age, but I suspect that the EFL governing body are in a tiny minority, although it doesn't really matter anymore.
 
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What should happen to Tonda Eckert now?

The whole club including the fans should create a siege mentality and next season come out fighting.

Tonda should be given God like status and anyone who talks to the media about him does so with worshipful like devotion. Songs about him to the tunes of hymns should be written ( something to challenge the Northam in the close season).

I'm currently studying the words to well known hymns to see if I can get Tonda in somewhere.
 
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