Match Day Thread Chelsea v Spurs

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The team is not developing. I see judgements made on players all the time and often they are wrong. Players are all different and opinions on them differ too. I think it's very difficult to judge any players in the Spurs team atm because the team has been so poor over the season. Having said that, some we can see because they have been around for some time Richarlison for example. He has been with us since 2022 FFS
it's only this season that he has played for any length of time because of injury. Now it's clear he is just not good enough for what we need as a striker. Tel on the other hand has only had 11 starts for Spurs that IMO is not enough to form a definitive judgement, especially in a disfunctional team.
He’s had more than 11 starts for Tottenham. It’s probably just that he’s been poor most of the time we wish it were only 11 starts.

There’s been enough games to judge Tel on by now over the last 18 months. He’s shown very, very little to give any real belief he’s going to amount to much, I think the lack of trust from the managers have shown as much too. If you ask anyone on the board what his best attributes are most will just say “great attitude”, when that should be a prerequisite. There’s just very little about him, there’s no major USP to his game.

In fact the harsh reality is, all of the young players we’ve signed over the last two years have shown very little signs of amounting to anything truly significant. We’re around two years into their Spurs careers and it feels like we’re still two years away from them ever being genuine contenders for a first team place - and two years feels generous for some.
 
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VdV was far more at fault defensively than Danso for the 2nd. Completely in no mans land, facing the play but didn't close down the goalscorer.
Danso isn't ****ing Franz Beckenbauer, but he's not the problem either.
Nah definitely Danso for me, ball goes over his head with two behind him and the cut back goes easily past him.
 
Tel on the other hand has only had 11 starts for Spurs that IMO is not enough to form a definitive judgement, especially in a disfunctional team.
This 100%
Focusing on the number months he's been on the books is almost irrelevant if the only (limited) game time he has had is in a disfunctioning unit under 4 different coaches.
 
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Agree with this. Even though things go deeper like coaching and recruitment, regardless of what manager is in charge, it’s hard to progress with constant individual mistakes.
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Has to start next week.

The risk is too great not too. A 50% fit Maddison ****s all over any player in this currently available team.

If Kudus can even walk I’d play him too. Definitely won’t be worse than Tel or Muani.

I’m with you on that front. I thought the pressing approach (I.e. Gallagher starting at 10) might give Chelsea more trouble than it did last night but Everton won’t play out from the back in the same way so I think we need Madders to try and unlock them.

Even if we get a half out of him, come flying out of the blocks then sub him at half time so Sarr can run them to death, that’s got to be the preferred approach. With the understandable nerves around the stadium at the moment, we need momentum on our side. The last thing we need is West Ham going up and then we’re subbing Maddison on at 60mins with desperation in our hearts.

We need to grasp control of our own destiny for once this season and go for it.
 
The team is not developing. I see judgements made on players all the time and often they are wrong. Players are all different and opinions on them differ too. I think it's very difficult to judge any players in the Spurs team atm because the team has been so poor over the season. Having said that, some we can see because they have been around for some time Richarlison for example. He has been with us since 2022 FFS
it's only this season that he has played for any length of time because of injury. Now it's clear he is just not good enough for what we need as a striker. Tel on the other hand has only had 11 starts for Spurs that IMO is not enough to form a definitive judgement, especially in a disfunctional team.

I agree players need time but sometimes it’s obvious early on.

Also Spurs can’t afford to be giving players 3-4 years before deciding if they’re good enough or not. The club needs ready made players. Tel so far hasn’t shown me so far anything to suggest he will come good. There’s a reason Bayern were so keen to let him go.
 
I'm torn between Spurf and DH on this.

The situation we had last season and much of this season where were were relying on a bunch of kids to develop more rapidly than even the likes of Bale and Kane was and is the stuff of nonsense.

More damaging is the fact that there is no one out there they can look to for example, someone with the quality to balance out the mistakes and poor decisions a young play will inevitably make.

Maybe Maddison is the closest we have right now, but he is half fit.
 
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He’s had more than 11 starts for Tottenham. It’s probably just that he’s been poor most of the time we wish it were only 11 starts.

There’s been enough games to judge Tel on by now over the last 18 months. He’s shown very, very little to give any real belief he’s going to amount to much, I think the lack of trust from the managers have shown as much too. If you ask anyone on the board what his best attributes are most will just say “great attitude”, when that should be a prerequisite. There’s just very little about him, there’s no major USP to his game.

In fact the harsh reality is, all of the young players we’ve signed over the last two years have shown very little signs of amounting to anything truly significant. We’re around two years into their Spurs careers and it feels like we’re still two years away from them ever being genuine contenders for a first team place - and two years feels generous for some.

It isn't as simple as this imo.

Yes the signs are worrying, but these youngsters have been thrown headfirst into the worst possible environment in which to develop. A succession of **** managers and surrounded by **** players.

I think back to Kyle Walker as a perfect example of this. YPOTY in a settled, quality side under Redknapp. Then went to complete **** under AVB and Sherwood, to the point that many fans were calling for him to be sold.

In steps a decent coach and a settled team surrounding him with better players, and hey presto, he's one of the best RBs in the world.
 
It isn't as simple as this imo.

Yes the signs are worrying, but these youngsters have been thrown headfirst into the worst possible environment in which to develop. A succession of **** managers and surrounded by **** players.

I think back to Kyle Walker as a perfect example of this. YPOTY in a settled, quality side under Redknapp. Then went to complete **** under AVB and Sherwood, to the point that many fans were calling for him to be sold.

In steps a decent coach and a settled team surrounding him with better players, and hey presto, he's one of the best RBs in the world.
Definitely had similar with Dawson: fans loved him under Jol, wanted him burned at the stake under Ramos, and went back to living him under Redknapp
 
I agree players need time but sometimes it’s obvious early on.

Also Spurs can’t afford to be giving players 3-4 years before deciding if they’re good enough or not. The club needs ready made players. Tel so far hasn’t shown me so far anything to suggest he will come good. There’s a reason Bayern were so keen to let him go.
We should not be relying on Tel I agree. We want to compete with the top 4 teams but we can't compete when it comes to signing top talents. The agents will make sure their players go to the clubs paying the highest wages, of course they will, they work on commission. What we should be able to do is what Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford and Palace do. We won't find those players by looking at rejects from Bayern, PSG, or Madrid. We need the players they won't sell and we have to have some good scouts to find them before the rest do.
I suspect we should save this debate until we find out what league we are playing in.
 
It isn't as simple as this imo.

Yes the signs are worrying, but these youngsters have been thrown headfirst into the worst possible environment in which to develop. A succession of **** managers and surrounded by **** players.

I think back to Kyle Walker as a perfect example of this. YPOTY in a settled, quality side under Redknapp. Then went to complete **** under AVB and Sherwood, to the point that many fans were calling for him to be sold.

In steps a decent coach and a settled team surrounding him with better players, and hey presto, he's one of the best RBs in the world.
Bayern didn’t fancy Tel.

The four managers we’ve had since he joined haven’t fancied him either, De Zerbi’s just in a situation where he’s been forced to play him.

At what point do we accept that a player with 150 first team appearances to his name just isn’t going to reach the level we want him to?

Like I said to Spurf, what’s Tel’s USP? There’s no real defining standout attribute about him.

Of the young players we’ve signed, Bergvall’s the only one who’s shown a glimpse of being potentially good enough to make it but we’re still looking at about 2-3+ years before he’s a genuinely viable option. Kinsky is terrible and I think fans hatred of Vicario is blinding them from agreeing with such, Gray just doesn’t really do that much but because he’s been thrown into multiple positions gets praised for his versatility and Odobert is even worse than Tel, he’s basically a poor man’s Yannick Bolasie.
 
We should not be relying on Tel I agree. We want to compete with the top 4 teams but we can't compete when it comes to signing top talents. The agents will make sure their players go to the clubs paying the highest wages, of course they will, they work on commission. What we should be able to do is what Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford and Palace do. We won't find those players by looking at rejects from Bayern, PSG, or Madrid. We need the players they won't sell and we have to have some good scouts to find them before the rest do.
I suspect we should save this debate until we find out what league we are playing in.
Recruitment is so important.
The likes of the B clubs have got it down to a fine art - but they are buying in a different market to the moneyed clubs, who don't seem to have worked out what they are doing yet or how they do it.
But if look at the bigger spending, Utd did very well with Mbeumo and Cunha - and possibly Sesko, if he continues to progress.
Less was spent on Lammens and Dorgu, but both have proved wise moves.
Utd's transfer business post-SAF has generally been abysmal, paying too much for either over the hill star names or paying too much for promising talents, who didn't progress as expected.
It's refreshing because usually Utd can stung with inflated transfer fees or fail to spot these hidden gems altogether.
The difference has meant a rise from 15th to 3rd in the table.
What does it take succeed with recruitment? Answer that and Spurs will similarly jump back up the table.
 
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Like I said to Spurf, what’s Tel’s USP? There’s no real defining standout attribute about him.

Bayern didn’t fancy Tel.

The four managers we’ve had since he joined haven’t fancied him either, De Zerbi’s just in a situation where he’s been forced to play him.

At what point do we accept that a player with 150 first team appearances to his name just isn’t going to reach the level we want him to?

Like I said to Spurf, what’s Tel’s USP? There’s no real defining standout attribute about him.

Of the young players we’ve signed, Bergvall’s the only one who’s shown a glimpse of being potentially good enough to make it but we’re still looking at about 2-3+ years before he’s a genuinely viable option. Kinsky is terrible and I think fans hatred of Vicario is blinding them from agreeing with such, Gray just doesn’t really do that much but because he’s been thrown into multiple positions gets praised for his versatility and Odobert is even worse than Tel, he’s basically a poor man’s Yannick Bolasie.
His USP, he has a great first touch and no football intelligence
 
Mid table manager with relegation calibre players (despite what some think)

Spurs are where they are because they deserve to be, not because of injuries, luck or officials.

The whole club needs a major overhaul. If it doesn’t come then expect mediocrity at best.
We are at the 95% level on injuries and I think we are likely at the 5% level on refereeing calls. Neither of those is in itself unusual or anyones fault because one club in the 20 in the PL will be there by chance. The second one is worth about 10 points compared to the average and I wouldn't be surprised if the first one is too so it is perfectly possible we are 20 points worse off from those two aspects of luck alone. If we had 20 more points we would be in a Champions League spot. So how can you possibly claim that neither has made any difference?
 
We are at the 95% level on injuries and I think we are likely at the 5% level on refereeing calls. Neither of those is in itself unusual or anyones fault because one club in the 20 in the PL will be there by chance. The second one is worth about 10 points compared to the average and I wouldn't be surprised if the first one is too so it is perfectly possible we are 20 points worse off from those two aspects of luck alone. If we had 20 more points we would be in a Champions League spot. So how can you possibly claim that neither has made any difference?

Injuries were obviously going to have an
effect on attacking performance (and thus
pts on the board) .

The "season compass" gave me the warning
well before what actually transpired under
Frank (which I stated here before the fact) .
 
Bayern didn’t fancy Tel.

The four managers we’ve had since he joined haven’t fancied him either, De Zerbi’s just in a situation where he’s been forced to play him.

At what point do we accept that a player with 150 first team appearances to his name just isn’t going to reach the level we want him to?

Like I said to Spurf, what’s Tel’s USP? There’s no real defining standout attribute about him.

Of the young players we’ve signed, Bergvall’s the only one who’s shown a glimpse of being potentially good enough to make it but we’re still looking at about 2-3+ years before he’s a genuinely viable option. Kinsky is terrible and I think fans hatred of Vicario is blinding them from agreeing with such, Gray just doesn’t really do that much but because he’s been thrown into multiple positions gets praised for his versatility and Odobert is even worse than Tel, he’s basically a poor man’s Yannick Bolasie.

The quality of the young players is up for debate - both their eventual ceilings, and their ability to contribute now.

The biggest problem is though that we have made a complete hash of profiling players across the squad, especially with the young players.

Nobody knows what Bergvall is, successive coaches haven’t worked out where he’s most effective (maybe RDZ has it with him being a Gallagher-esque player who has a bit more quality on the ball about him?). Gray has played everywhere, partially because he has had to, but is he a 6? An 8? Nobody knows. Tel has played across the front line, Odobert too as well as occasionally as a 10, though he’s always injured. Who or what is a Xavi Simons?

This is what happens when you have a weak DOF and a succession of coaches or are either unable to, or not in post long enough to, properly embed a way of playing and identify which players fit which roles. Not to mention the changes in how we’ve been playing over the last 12 months.

The vast majority of young players need to be given a role and to train consistently to do it, so that when they get their opportunities on the pitch, the game is simple for them and they can focus on the basics. It’s very different to signing someone like Palhinha, or even a more nominally versatile player like RKM on loan as the club don’t care about developing them, they’re there to do a job when called upon.

I’ve said it before but a massive problem for us is the sheer number of young players all competing for game time in similar parts of the pitch, couple this with the turnover in coaches and that they’re all probably having to play more than you’d hope given the injuries and it’s clear that we’re just muddling through with no clear plan.

It’s why I hope RDZ will be a good coach for us. I think he has a clear game model and a clear sense of what he wants players to do in different parts of the pitch. I also think there’s a trend where your most technical midfield player needs to be the 8 (or the more progressive of a double pivot in a 4231) as getting through an opponent’s mid block or press is the biggest challenge right now - generally you can have space in your own defensive third, or find it in behind a press. RDZ is an innovator and I could see him coaching a midfield where Maddison/Simons drops deeper in the buildup and Gallagher/Bergvall run channels and buzz around for second balls if the 9 can’t make it stick. Then if you get settled possession the more technical player moves closer to goal and the runner covers.

I digress. But the problem is that nobody really knows what role our young players should be doing so they’re probably all a bit lost. It’s harsh to make judgements in such an environment.
 
We are at the 95% level on injuries and I think we are likely at the 5% level on refereeing calls. Neither of those is in itself unusual or anyones fault because one club in the 20 in the PL will be there by chance. The second one is worth about 10 points compared to the average and I wouldn't be surprised if the first one is too so it is perfectly possible we are 20 points worse off from those two aspects of luck alone. If we had 20 more points we would be in a Champions League spot. So how can you possibly claim that neither has made any difference?

I’ll just pick out one point for now.

So you think this current squad could finish in a champions league place without injuries?