Off Topic Politics Thread

That fact has been pointed out many times across all media but there are those that choose to ignore and label any criticism of the Israeli government's actions in Gaza or the ultra zionist settlers west bank atrocities antisemitic.

 

• Mistakenly released prisoner Brahim Kaddour-Cherif has been arrested for being unlawfully at large on Blackstock Road in Islington, north London
• He was detained at 11:30 GMT after a member of the public called the police to report a sighting of a man they believed to be the 24-year-old Algerian
• Kaddour-Cherif had been released in error from HMP Wandsworth on Wednesday, 29 October
• He had been convicted in November of indecent exposure relating to an incident in March that year, police said

• Kaddour-Cherif is the second mistakenly released prisoner to return to custody in as many days - William "Billy" Smith handed himself into HMP Wandsworth on Thursday

 

So very true, but some just won't have it. This came up recently.

"Are we really going to do that dumb dance of saying, ‘Criticising Zionism is not the same thing as hating Jews’? Stop it. I’m tired." Brendan O'Neill, Spiked Online.

Unfortunately there has been systemic discrimination against Jews across Israel itself - supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv being a noticeable spearhead - towards Mizrahi Jews "Sons of Arab ****es". Estimates suggest that over 50% of Israel's Jewish population is of at least partial Mizrahi descent, making them the largest Jewish ethnic group.

Mizrahi oppression refers to discrimination and marginalization faced by Jewish people originating from the Middle East and North Africa, both before and after their immigration to Israel. While there were occasional antisemitic incidents before the 20th century, tensions surrounding Zionism and conflicts in Mandatory Palestine led to growing antisemitism in the Arab world. The violence and brutality of the Nakba - Israel's displacement of Palestinians - created a backlash that endangered Mizrahi Jews throughout the region, forcing many Arab Jews to flee to Israel where they faced a different form of oppression.

In Israel, this oppression materialised as systemic discrimination by the dominant Ashkenazi (European Jewish) establishment, which viewed Mizrahi culture as inferior and imposed its own norms through policies in housing, education, and employment. This led to socioeconomic inequalities and the erosion of Mizrahi identity, disparities that persist in Israeli society today¹ with Mizrahi communities continuing to face lower average incomes, educational gaps, media presence and a stark underrepresentation in positions of power.

Forms of oppression:

• Cultural: The Ashkenazi-led state sought to create a European-centric society, leading to the dismissal of Mizrahi culture, language, and traditions. Arab Jews were never part of the original Zionist vision, which was fundamentally a European nationalist project emerging in Central and Eastern Europe in the late 19th century as a response to European antisemitism and the rise of ethnic nationalism.

• Social and economic: Arriving Mizrahi immigrants were often directed to live in overcrowded and impoverished areas, experience segregated educations, their cultural background was seen as a hindrance to success in a society that favoured European norms.

• Political: The ruling establishment exploited and marginalized Mizrahi communities, leading to a lack of representation in political and economic systems.

• "De-Arabization": Many Mizrahi Jews felt pressured to abandon aspects of their identity, particularly their connection to Arab culture, to be accepted into Israeli society. This pressure was codified in the 2018 Nation-State Basic Law, which stripped Arabic of its official language status, reducing it to merely having 'special status' - a symbolic and practical erasure of Mizrahi linguistic and cultural heritage.

If the Zionist state discriminates among Jews - creating a hierarchy of “kinds of Jews,” what Mizrahi scholars call the paradox of Jewish racism; then Zionism cannot be equated with the protection of Jews from antisemitism. Criticizing Zionism is not antisemitic, and defending Zionism is not the same as defending Jews as a people. Mizrahi Jewish critics are some of the sharpest critics of Zionism - because they lived its hierarchy. That’s how we actually fight anti-Semitism: by naming it clearly, by defending free speech, and by holding everyone accountable - Israel very much included.

Both Zionism and European antisemitism emerged from the same historical context of 19th-century European nationalism and racial thinking. It is deeply bad faith to project European frameworks of antisemitism onto Arab and Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation and expansionism; conflating the opposition to specific state violence with the racial hatred that characterized European antisemitism, erases the material reality of dispossession and systemic oppression.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (Founding father of Israel and first Israeli Prime Minister)
Le Paraddoxe Juif . pp121.

Ben-Gurion could discuss, quite openly, that “we have come and we have stolen their (Palestinians) country,” while describing the later unforeseen Arab Jewish immigrants as being “two thousand years behind us,” implying they needed to be remade as modern Israeli citizens, modeled on European Ashkenazi norms.

Tom Segev, 1949: The First Israelis

1. Gender, ethnic, and national earnings gaps in Israel: The role of rising inequality (Haberfeld & Cohen)

 

https://removepaywalls.com/https://...e-pro-palestine-left-is-facilitating-fascism/

 

"Svengali (/svɛŋˈɡɑːli/) is a character in the novel Trilby which was first published in 1894 by George du Maurier. The name "Svengali" has become synonymous with a manipulative authority figure who dominates another person, especially one with a villainous intent. The character is a stereotypical antisemitic portrayal of an Ashkenazic (Eastern European) Jew, complete with "bold, black, beady Jew's eyes" and a "hoarse, rasping, nasal, throaty rook's caw, his big yellow teeth baring themselves in a mongrel canine snarl".

George Orwell wrote that Svengali, who—while cleverer than the Englishmen—is evil, effeminate, and physically repugnant, was "a sinister caricature of the traditional type" and an example of "the prevailing form of antisemitism. In the novel, Svengali transforms Trilby into a great singer by using hypnosis. Unable to perform without Svengali's help, Trilby becomes entranced." Wikipedia.

 

That is a stretch. lol. These days any portrayal of any Jewish character as anything = anti semitism. lol. "portrays as a sinister and manipulative figure" Its a dual hit of hypnotism and brainwashing is something people all over the place accuse the right of all the time. Seems fair game to me to strip away anything to do with him being a Jew and see without tinted glasses that its using his hypnotist background allied with the brainwashing aspect and nothing at all to do with him being Jewish.

Reminds me of when that Australian cartoonist / characaturist did that image in a newspaper of Serena Williams as a cry baby and was immediately criticised for racism when characatures are "grotesques" at worst and exaggerated features at best, pretty much like spitting image or Gerald Scarfe. People are looking for things that just aren't there these days. No idea why because there's plenty of actual bad **** to attack without trying to skew things like this.

Where does this link to Svengali come in?

 

Tees Valley mayor Lord (Ben) Houchen promised renewal. Instead, Britain’s biggest regeneration project has turned into a taxpayer-funded scandal - enriching a few local businessmen while leaving public bodies on the brink. Private eye podcast
https://fb.watch/DeR-HZaYuJ/

 

I saw the cartoon last night, Polanski has been depicted as Svengali. So I thought it was appropriate to quote the wiki stub on Svengali for context. The historical baggage of the pointily evil, grotesque, hypnotic, effeminate, and physically repugnant hypnotist Svengali overrides any claim of "fair game".

The cartoon is pertinent as it leads directly on from with my previous post regarding the "antisemitism = anti-Zionism" trope - which gets hurled about - examining historic discrimination in Israel against the wrong "type of jew". Elsewhere there are other more treacherous 'wrong types', the 'International Jew' remade as the 'Globalist', US Democrat voting Jews "who hate Israel and their religion,"¹ or in Zack's case a Jewish UK leader who actively supports Palestinian statehood.

We could have a thought experiment; where we imagine a version of this Svengali Halloween cartoon depicting a right-wing Jewish politician with an Israeli flag/Star of David on his lapel?



Given the historical context I've laid out, that Svengali was explicitly created as an antisemitic caricature of Jewish manipulation and 'outsiderness'. A canard which been weaponized against Jewish people for centuries, it's not a dusty 19th-century caricature; how can we possibly strip away the fact that a Jew who once happened to be a hypnotist, is being depicted with the precise imagery of the notorious antisemitic trope ... today adapted to sport a Palestinian flag?

I'm curious what specific criteria you'd use to determine when a visual trope against a minority figure stops being a just a caricature and starts being hate speech. I do respect your insightful views Imps, but I do think you've overlooked some things here.

¹Donald Trump: America First podcast - March 18, 2024
Full Quote: “I actually think they hate Israel. And the Democrat party hates Israel... Any Jewish person that votes for Democrats hates their religion. They hate everything about Israel and they should be ashamed of themselves because Israel will be destroyed.”

 

Hubble-Bubble double quote trouble

 

"has been depicted as Svengali" Where? Also noting "As Svengali" and not "As a Svengali" so this means people are trying to suggest this is directing at Svengalis the person and not just as someone who (a la Simon Cowell etc) being someone who uses others as a means to an end.........erm like all most politicians!

This is an image that looks like Polanski, in the clothes he tends to wear, hypnotising people into following him and using his party colours to highlight his eyes as mesmorising! Where is this depiction of "svengali" come in?

The links in the image are of him, not of anything Jewish.
Is hypnotism a credible thing to portray him as? Yes quite literally it is what he does/has done in real life.
Is changing eye colour to party colours in order to portray a politician as demonic/sinister anti-semitic? Nope. Its been done with red and blue and all sorts of party colours for all manner of politicians since the day dot no matter their religion. Very famous one was the Saatchi Blair advert.

The problem here is like criticism of Soros. Anything like this is immediately jumped on as anti-semitic because of the "target" being Jewish when that picture is not at all "depicting him as Svengali". Even if it was I wouldn't be jumping to the conclusions others are. Lots of people are called Svengali in the past decades and not in any anti-semitic way.

In my opinion unless there is something much more credible than "He's Jewish, they're making him look evil and manipulative" then I don't see it as anti-semitic at all. Its just a political ad targetting someone on whatever link they can. i.e. guy with bonkers views, that hypnotises people. which fits in very well with the whole political "brainwashing" angle.

We've already had the Rachel Reeves "because she's a woman" one earlier which is quite simply turning Colin from accounts (popular Aussie comedy ) into Rachel as it rolls off the tongue and here we have "drawing pictures of someone (who happens to be a Jew) that look sinister is anti-semitic.

I look forward to criticism of any drawings of Farage or Boris or Starmer or..........as being "anti" something.........but they won't they will just be seen for what they are.

So where you put "has been depicted as Svengali" where? In his own clothes, with a face that looks like him, doing something he is in the news for anyway? Is it you that have made that link? Based on what?

He has been depicted as himself in a halloween theme doing something he quite literally does in real life using his party's colours which also tune into the halloween theme. lol

Now that's not to say I think it is a sensible idea to go that route in the political climate we are in because, as with your post, it is open for any opponents to depict it as being anti semitic despite it not being so!

Anti semitic? Nope, Just drawing on halloween and his own professional background, adding his party colours to emphasise. Sensible? No.

 

LINK: https://archive.ph/20250119171648/h...omar-israel-jews.html#selection-663.0-891.409

If you're seriously questioning why depicting a Jewish politician with malign sinister powers and glowing eyes might just carry antisemitic baggage, this piece lays it out with historical clarity. The ‘Hypnotic Jew' (Jud Süss’ as Goebbels called his commissioned film) trope isn’t just a metaphor - it’s a recurring weapon. You've asked "Where is this depiction of "Svengali" come in?" a few times; visual antisemitic tropes don't need labels. There doesn't need be a yarmulke on ratman or a Star of David on the octopus sprawled over the globe for it to be a dog whistle.

While you actually want more than 'He’s Jewish and they’ve made him look evil and manipulative, then I don't see it as anti-semitic at all," the fact that you’re asking for more just shows how effective dog whistles are. They’re also designed to be deniable.

If you've read the linked piece above...

Interesting how the hypnotism trope is deeply antisemitic when (US Democrat) Ilhan Omar used the word in a tweet - the deeply critical author saying it's "dogged her career" - but not when Reform UK uses it against a Jewish politician who supports Palestinian statehood. Political sides invoke antisemitism when it suits them and dismiss it when it doesn’t. I’m invoking it here too... but to expose the pattern, not exploit it. But antisemitism isn’t a partisan tool. It’s a historical weapon.


Józef Goebbels commissioned The Hypnotic Jew/Jude Suss 1940

"So where you put "has been depicted as Svengali" where? In his own clothes, with a face that looks like him, doing something he is in the news for anyway? Is it you that have made that link? Based on what? He has been depicted as himself doing something he quite literally does in real life. lol"

Yes, and Jewish people are well represented in banking and the media- professions that get weaponized in antisemitic propaganda. Which means, “coincidentally,” some Jewish people may actually do the jobs the tropes depict. Of course it looks like him. Of course he’s dressed normally. Yes he's doing his former job which was in the news. That’s what makes a caricature effective: it has to be recognisable. If it didn’t resemble him, it wouldn’t work as propaganda. The problem isn’t recognizability - it’s what was layered on top of the propaganda, the precise imagery of the puppet-master Svengali/Hypnotic Jew trope a well-documented, historical antisemitic caricature. I'll admit I can almost feel the temptation - daring to draw it. To lean on recognizability while the trope fits soooo conveniently, it forms itself, just needs a flag to reposition it in the (***king depressing) culture war. And then to pretend it’s just coincidence.


As I said the deniability of dog whistles are a feature, not a flaw. But with this one at this point "that is a stretch. lol."

 

We will have to disagree then. Being [insert demographic] does not protect you from any kind of attacks. I see a guy from the green party that is well known to be a hypnotist, in fact its probably the only thing some know about him, on a halloween poster, which of course is gonna be "sinister" as its halloween. And he's hypnotising people because.....errmmm.....he does hypnotise people literally which also plays well into a political narrative aligning yhpnotism to bainwashing!

People will see what they want to see. I see a halloween joke playing on his actual real life profession (not stereotypes or tropes) with no alteration to his clothing, hardly any change to his appearance at all and themed in a halloween way.

Now if you had come with the Mamdani one where they are branding him a terrorist...I think we would agree, but on this one. Nope. Its a halloween image of a guy who is a hypnotist, hypnotising [the perceived viewer] with sinister green eyes, on a green poster because he's leader of the green party in a halloween hue because it was halloween.

There's no point getting angry just because you see something as "obvious" and I don't. I can see why you might see it as obvious but I would suggest there is a lot of your will wanting to see something that is not there as much as anything, but hey ho. we disagree. co-incidence? e

Like I said. Not the best idea for them to have gone with it precisely because some will see stuff there and its best not to present open goals when trying to attack people.

This sentence is pure BS bordering conspiiracy theory. lol. Hilarious. Anything defensible is defensible, not "is designed to be."

The fact I was "asking for more" was because presenting a hypnotist as being a hypnotist....... with green eyes and focusing object when it is halloween AND he is leader of the green party........in a halloween hue when it is halloween.......means you need to present more to convince me of your argument. Like I said I can sympathise that people looking for stuff will see it. I can see what you;re saying. I just don't personally agree with what you're saying.

Which would prove what? That the left will attack a politician based on whatever they can as well? That does not alter the discussion we are having in that you think they went "Jew - find a trope" and I don't....as I've explained. You're the one inserting firstly the Jewish and now Zionist argument into this.

I will play along though. Right wing "interests" would look for the "antisemitism" angle of attack as well against whoever made that cartoon. Doesn't make it true though and I daresay we would see posts on here ridiculing any link if it were that way round.

 

I'll ask my own thought experiment:

When whoever had the idea of that halloween image typed into AI what to do with the original image it worked from......Do you think they typed "Make me an evil jew hypnotist" based on this image? OR maybe just "Do me a halloween themed hypnotist"

OR do you think that said poster actually had talents and made this themselves within a few of hours before posting it up?

 

Not convinced about any argument centring around that image but i so think Polanski has stolen alot of thunder from the Left. I was really pleased with the launch of "Your Party " which very much represents the kind of politics i believe in but it has been an unmitigated disaster and i think the success of Polanski with the Greens will drain suppport further. In fact , i can see Your Party becoming more aligned with Islamic interest issues such as anti racism, pro immigration and anti Israel policies which will gain support in places like Luton and Leicester but lose in more traditional working class votes. It will fill a void with Muslim voters who are defranchised but alienate other people on the left of politics. I think Corbyn will get shunted out.

You so sense that things are certainly very febrile on the Left. Polanski is far more credible than the rather flakey Caroline Lucas who once suggested banning men from voting . All of a sudden , the Greens have become a viable political force that they have never been before. I would now consider voting for them again.

For me, Labour are a liability under Starmer and i just hope that the whispers about a possible rebellion are true. There have been a number of emails i have received the last few months urging support for Momentum who now seem resurgent. I am hoping that they go for someone like Clive Lewis as leader. That would lessen the appeal of Polanski for me personally.

 

On the image I think its pretty much down to what the "creator" asked the AI to generate as it looks AI to me. Did they ask for Jew? or just present a polanski image and say make him a hypnotist with green eyes. or is AI itself full of anti-semitic bias in its datasets? I doubt the user asked for anything Jewish at all.

Momentum is vibrant again because they can see that there is a left, that the online left (despite everybody's suggestions it ain't so) still dominating all platforms and that even within Labour channels and platforms.........all the talk is about the Greens! Are Momentum sticking with Labour? Moving with Corbyn? or like most of the online left I see, now openly stating they have gone green?

 

Owen Jones has joined the Greens . This is quite telling seeing as he is perceived as the George Orwell of our times.

 

Who by? That’s hilarious!

 

I think it was in the Guardian but it was quoted on the cover of one of his books.

Never read any of his publications but sometimes read his articles on line. Not a fan although i agree with some of his views.