Yeah statues are a different thing. However, I maintain at the time there wasn't anything wrong with what they did. It wasn't illegal etc to have slaves for example. That is why I feel it wrong to punish people for things in the past that weren't seen as wrong at the time. I agree though that we shouldn't celebrate it now. Do we need to take them all down or do we need other learn from it? genuine question?
I would say we need to be open to discussing it. Even at the time Clive was a controversial figure, but his great wealth enabled him to deflect prosecution at home.
Tol people what? No-one is apologising for the Frog. He is what he is and he was made by the ignorance of the rest of them and their army of sheeple!
?? So politics you don't like is populist but what you agree with isn't. I getcha. You described populism as making things black and white. as an either or. That is exactly what they have all been doing increasingly for the past 20-30 years. You are fully on board or you are one of them! Why is it that only the right wing version is populsim? Can you not see that they are all doing the same thing? Trying to say no half measures, fully on board or you're one of them? This is not as you seem to see it something Farage or Trump do and the rest don't! They all do this. If your description = populists then they are all populists. Starmer/Labour, Tories, all of them! They all play this charade of Do you 100% agree with us? You are one of them then. All the TV interviewers do it. Maitlis and O Brien are ridiculously bad for it. no grey are this end or that end? No nuance. either / or Can you not see that this is half of the problem? When you apply labels as "derogatory" on Farage yet are blind to the fact that all those that oppose Farage are doing exactly the same thing? I repeat why is it populism when the "baddies" do it but not when the "goodies" do it? And no I am not going to carry on and on with this as I can already see the replies so far show that none of you can see that the supposed "good guys" do exactly the same thing. None so blind as those that will not see...and all that jazz.
But both Starmer and Corbyn's supporters throw mud and try and shame people by attacking anyone that does not stay on message 100% as being one of them. They are grandstanders of either/or, us and them, with us or against us. That you can see it is not really surprising. Seems loads of people can only see the evils of the right. Angels cannot sin.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. You mentioned the right. I just mentioned populists. There are indeed left wing populist parties in Spain and Greece. However, Labour has not set up a ‘them and us’ politics and has tried to weave the gap between polarised views. They even adopt the odd populist policy - but that is different to populism. Boris was a populist, using the EU as his them and us issue. Starmer is many things, but not a populist. Labour do not present society in simplistic terms of elites and norms. You know full well what a populist is. Not sure how you are taking this so poorly.
Strawman. Nobody said anybody is beyond reproach. Also you are really stretching to define Labour as populists. Very silly.
Tories recovering aren't going to get those traditional labour voters back! That is the key problem area. Corbyn/Labour might divvy up the modern middle class labour voters. The short term looking at where votes came from ignores that the vast majority of reform voters would've voted Labour 15 years or so ago! Traditional red wall working class voters. Only voted for Boris to get Brexit done and got shafter there y the Tories so they aren't returning. Imagine 2019 election without Boris and the Brexit issue! Hung parliament at best. Those voters were voting Tory as a one off. trouble for Labour is instead of returning to the red side they went the other way! People pinning their hopes on Tories are fooling themselves. Tories polling has been on the slide for nearly a year now. "around 20%" is being gentle on their plight. People are still ignoring which areas and with which demographics reform are constantly improving their numbers with and its all ex red voters atm. not ex blues. Look further back than the misleading 2019 election. Look at patterns since Blair! red wall has increasingly diminished % wise over time!
Not silly at all. They are all populists these days. they don' t care about listening or compromise. all about attacking anyone that does not comply 100% to the narrative. All sides and colours are at it. All the same. Not strawman at all. you are just unable to see that they are all at it! Starmer's team are terrible at it. They group describe people all the time! branding all protestors as far right a year ago! Not any nuance or grey areas there....All far right!. Anyone opposing any aspect of the online protection act = supporter of ****philes. Anyone who questions if the money going to Ukraine is actually getting to where it should = Putin apologists No grey areas. With us or you are one of them! Do not question anything or you are 100% against us!
You are welcome to define them like this if you like. They don’t fit the populist definition in almost any way, but you do you. The Strawman was saying Labour are beyond reproach when they clearly are not, and I am not sure Starmer has any real support on these boards.
