Typical, I had forgotten that so maybe I should take that into consideration - it seems the police only wish to make something of incidents of racial abuse when they become public knowledge (whether they be footballers or pikeys on trams). Perhaps they wish to make it appear that anyone using racist slurs and insults will feel the wrath of justice brought down upon them. To think this is the case (and actually happens) would be naïve in my opinion.
1. Confirmation bias. You will only ever hear about it in the news if it's a high profile event. So yeah, public knowledge of police/courts' punishment only occurs when the event is public knowledge. 2. Only an Orwellian police could actually punish everyone (youtube commenters, unpublicised women on trams, etc). 3. The high profile event causes much greater offence than the smaller stuff you're talking about. A woman shouting abuse on the tram offends those people around her. A viral video of a woman shouting abuse on the tram offends a lot of people around the country. So yeah, the police look to punish this. 4. Shouting racial abuse at a footballer is no different to shouting racial abuse at some bloke on the street. Either way, you're making a judgement on someone based on the colour of their skin (something they can't control), along with a judgement on every other person in the world with that colour skin. When you shout racial abuse at the footballer, you're also saying it about the bloke on the street. The fact that the footballer is paid well is irrelevant, given that the bloke on the street is also affected by the racism. 5. I don't see many League 1 players earning £10k per week. 6. Does this forum have to have a thread about race every ****ing week? What the **** has that woman got to do with football?
What this woman has said is very relevant to terrace talk. Indeed, should one now even discuss political issues at football, you could be looking at doing a lump. (question when do the govt want us discussing politics) The situation in Scottish football is very vague and misleading. For example sectarian songs of which I know very little about is completely banned and can result in prison, yet is carried out with great gusto very week. If I was to go into scruffy murphys on Friday night and file a complaint against the many anti-english songs being played by the band, would I be acting fairly and reasonable and protecting public morals? You can not have it all ways. I have not heard any racist chanting at an english ground for 18 years, yet I am consistantly told it exists. The DVD song aout ZZ is that racist or a lovable appreciation and accepatnce of a foreign player by way of jokey banter? I have no idea what is a racist chant and nor do the FA which is why Sepp Blater and the rest of the world laughs its socks off at our oversensitive and abhorrant horror to that monster called racism.
1. my anger is more at the fact that very few people I know who have been racially (or otherwise - whether that be verbally or physically) abused very rarely have anything done about it. 2. They should try a bit harder 3. I would find it far easier to be offended if somebody came up to me in the street and said 'you Irish/Black/Chinese' so and so, than if I read on the news that Robbie Keane/Jermaine Defoe/....Zheng Zhi, had been abused via twitter. 4. You are right, racist abuse is abhorrent, I don't condone it, and I don't condone racist chanting (though very few chants I can think of I would actually deem 'racist'). 5. My original comment was based more on Premier League stars etc, League One footballers don't earn quite enough to live comfortably for the rest of their lives when retiring (presumably) and so I'd be slightly more understanding of them playing the victim when on the tail end of abuse. 6. IA it doesn't have to end up about race. Perhaps it was my fault for posting about such a controversial issue. I just sometimes find it enjoyable to hear football related debates that are not specifically about Charlton. I didn't wish to post it on the General Chat forum, as I'd rather hear the contrasting views of Typical, PondersEnd, yourself and Super etc, rather than read what some random Southampton/Chelsea fan thinks of Neil Warnock. However, if anybody has been offended by anything they have read, I'll be more than willing to take the thread down
Sorry to double-post, somebody mentioned the Sectarian songs between the Old Firm clubs. Perhaps I am not the only one who finds these songs themselves particularly 'racist'. I find the only difference between singing about being 'up to your knees in Fenian blood', and 'build a bonfire...put the Palace on the top, put the Millwall in the middle and burn the ****ing lot', is that the latter stems from a history deep in violence and hatred. The actual content of the songs seems to have been put in the backround, with the 'history' of the song taken into the foreground. I guess it is a matter of taste and interpretation though, I can see why people would be offended by such a chant, but at the same time I can see that the actual lyrics of the chant are nowhere near as bad as certain other chants. Perhaps its just not witty enough...
This is my point. You cannot and should not sanistise football. The historical significance of the songs in the old firm games define scotland, its history,its being, its very survival as a nation, is dependant on that tribal existance. Quite how you police the singing is beyond me. It remains to be seen if you can silence 30,000 voices. In England the games have died. It no longer is the right of passage that it once was. The witty exchanges, the shouts, the pleas, are being lost for fear of persecution. This is just book burning by the goverment, they fear collective opinion gathering within the masses and will use the law to distort and perverse our right of free speech. Football is strangling itself in its own self rightousness, one day soon, the man will have you answering questions about diversity and equality at the turnstiles, God knows how I am gonna get in.
As far as I am aware, footballers are not offered contracts with clauses concerning abusive chanting. Racial and Homophobic abuse is wrong and should not be tolerated or accepted by anyone. If you feel that this is wrong and I should not say it then you are welcome to your views but not to chant/sing them at The Valley. Red, White and Black Day and the Kick it Out Campaign would suggest that the Club is against that sort of abuse and I for one am proud that fact.
Not sure if thats directed at me? If it is then you've entirely misinterpreted me The contract offer 'with clauses' was a hypothetical scenario. I don't condone racism at all, in fact I despise it.
I don't agree. If someone could point me towards any song sung at the valley which is homophobic or racist then please do. Our national anthem contains the words crushing scots and other variables of giving foreigners/religions a kicking, do you suggest that is banned? or should we just hum the chorus. When lines are crossed then you have a point. Black Red and white day is an embarrassment to me as an adult. Why do I have to wear a sticker? Why do I have to be constantly told that racism exist in a place it does not? Why does the club not embrace a sticker day for our dead serviceman? The more you earn, the more susceptable you are to cristicism, footballers seem to think they should be immune to what they consider (which has yet to be proved by anyone) that english football is somehow racist. They are just oversensitive tarts and the common theme within these allegations seem to be for mutual benefit rather than the general public at large.
You are right in that the songs have not come in to the ground yet. They stay in the pubs, especially at away games. If you have not heard these songs then I am pleased for you. Unfortunately I have and I am not a fan. I think that it would not take much for this minority to start singing the abuse in the ground and the schemes mentioned help to deter them (stickers or not). I have not heard the verses about crushing Scots sung at the Valley so need to ban them quite yet. I do not believe that English Football is racist, I do believe that there are racists in English football if only on the terraces. I am not prepared to argue that fact as I know some of these guys and they are self professed racists and die hard CAFC fans. If you think they are not there, good for you.
Sectarianism is a cancer in Scottish football which has practically destroyed it. You have to see it to believe it. Those English fans who want The Old Firm to play in England have not experienced this religious hatred at first hand.
RalpheMilnesGut, I do agree with your second point, well at least that I'm glad to be a supporter of a team who have a pretty good record on stamping our racism. However I am NOT a fan of 'red, white and black' day, or such events as I strongly believe that the only way to stop racism is to stop going on about it, to stop congratulating every black manager for being a manager who is black, and to stop pointing out how far we have come as a society. The more emphasis that is placed on black achievements or promoting black/white union, the more a rift is created whereby white folk see black folk as being 'the other' (the same applies to homophobia). As for racism in English football, it is tiny compared to that of other countries. The aforementioned example of the Old Firm is a good one, whilst I do not belief the condemned chants are any more racist than 'build a bonfire' (or the national anthem itself as was so well observed in a previous post), I belief there is an absolute hatred towards fans of the other team simply because of their religion. Other examples from across the world; -many National Teams fans making monkey noises at opposition black players (seemingly a very Eastern-European tradition), -Chants of 'A Black Italian does not exist/There's no such thing as a black italian' at Mario Balotelli when he was playing in Italy, -Lazio's massive fascist following coupled with Di Canio's fascist salutes when playing for them (yes fascism isn't principally the same as racism but its a decent comparison to make) -Banana's being thrown at Roberto Carlos in Turkey When looking at these examples, it seems as though the problem of racism in English football isn't necessarily a 'problem' in that it is generally always picked up on, and offenders are punished (one exception being Nathan Ellington's accusations against Millwall fans). That was an awfully long post, so to anybody who read it (and anyone who finds time to reply to it), thank you
WWOCB - ignoring something does not make it go away. There might be better options than the CARE, Kick it out etc and I am sure the club would love to hear them. I maintain that raising awareness is better than ignoring the problem. I do agree that we should stop congratulating managers for the colour of their skin. Using the same people as role models is a much better idea. There are many stereotypes for all of us to follow and to highlight people who are succesful in their field is a positive step in my opinion. There is a problem element in English fans the same way there probably is in most countries. The fact it is picked up on is a good thing but shows there is something there to pick up on. ForestHillBilly -With Scottish (Glaswegian) in-laws I am very aware of the problems that exist in that city. I had no real idea how bad it was until I witnessed it first hand.
RalphMilne, I wasn't suggesting we ignore racism, rather that we ignore 'colour'. Admittedly if all of a sudden we stop referring to Chris Powell as a black manager, or Obama as the first black president, racism won't actually go away, but by highlighting differences constantly, we are reinforcing a sense of blacks and whites 'not being the same', and perhaps fuelling racism even more. Racism should be stamped out, but schemes such as 'Black History Month' (in schools) should be as well. Again apologies to all not606'ers who hate this sort of debate
I love this sort of thread, WWOCB. Sadly, I seem to rub many others up the wrong way with my 'extreme' views. I very rarely post on here nowadays because of the site's sterile feel and largely ultra-liberal contingent. I am not saying that the views of the majority are wrong, but they do not reflect my own take on life and how I would dearly love to see this country evolve. It is for these reasons that I will refrain from making any real point about the subject at hand: I would just be shot down as a bigoted scumbag anyway. In fact, I find the hand-wringers' dogma so offensive and oppressive that I actually feel like an outcast on a Charlton Athletic fansite. Sad days, methinks.
The two are no different and just as bad. Just because you're in a well paid job it doesn't make it socially acceptable to personally abuse someone because of their race or sexual orientation. Abuse is not acceptable within any limits and it doesn't help that there is so much abuse of free speech these days either, which comes with responsibilties. No one would expect to go to a match and get abuse as a spectator because of their sexuality or ethnic origin/nationality and neither should any footballer.
Partly because they aren't being reported to the authorities, the police can't monitor twitter, youtube etc 24 hours a days but now whenever I come across it on public transport I always report it and will carry on doing so. I find it offensive when I encounter any homophobic or racist comments and I wish more people would challenge it rather than put up with it from bullies.
Maybe before anyone contributes to this type of thread they could classify themselves according to which group they are in: Hand-wringers Do-gooders Bigoted scumbag Guardian reader Daily Mail reader. Beard and Sandals brigade Racist Sun-reader etc. etc. etc.........
Both were equally unacceptable because one was physical and the other verbal hatred. There's a problem with the courts and judge if those who physically attacked the woman were not given the correct punishment for it, there are rules for sentencing and they weren't being sufficiently applied in that case. Hate crime is also now being taken more seriously as it needs to be and this woman was giving verbal abuse to black people, some British some not on the tram, not what you expect to hear when going on a journey and I hope the courts deal with it very robustly but the law needs to be applied fairly. It's this sort of anti social behaviour that makes a journey by public transport so unpleasant.
