1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Off Topic The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Stroller, Jun 25, 2015.

?

Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

Poll closed Jun 24, 2016.
  1. Stay in

    56 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Get out

    61 vote(s)
    52.1%
  1. Star of David Bardsley

    Star of David Bardsley 2023 Funniest Poster

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    69,795
    Likes Received:
    57,292
    Michael Rosen is a prominent self-hating lunatic btw.
     
    #94461
  2. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    24,580
    Likes Received:
    23,994
    Plently of Jews hate what the IDF is doing in Gaza (although I know you're not one of them). It's not anti-semitic to call them out as genocidal murderers.

    These two stories ran alongside each other on the BBC website at the weekend. Which of these is more worthy of outrage, would you say?........


    please log in to view this image





    Here's the answer from our objective press.....



    please log in to view this image
     
    #94462
  3. Star of David Bardsley

    Star of David Bardsley 2023 Funniest Poster

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    69,795
    Likes Received:
    57,292
    Stuff that happened yesterday here is going to get more of the headlines than the same thing happening for the hundredth time somewhere else. Not everyone is desperate for more war porn with their cornflakes.

    But my point really was just that Rosen is a fruitcake.
     
    #94463
  4. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    24,580
    Likes Received:
    23,994
    Yeah, but Bob Vylan.....

    Senior Israeli official says all Palestinian adults in Gaza 'should be eliminated' | Middle East Eye
     
    #94464
  5. kiwiqpr

    kiwiqpr Barnsie Mod

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    116,039
    Likes Received:
    232,264
    Map shows full list of countries that want Israel wiped off face of the Earth or refuse to acknowledge it exist. No wonder Israelis have a siege mentality: PETER VAN ONSELEN
    By PETER VAN ONSELEN, POLITICAL EDITOR FOR DAILY MAIL AUSTRALIA

    Published: 15:43 AEST, 22 June 2025 | Updated: 23:04 AEST, 22 June 2025






    There are few nations on Earth whose very existence is up for debate. Fewer still where that debate is held not only in the United Nations General Assembly but on the streets of Sydney, London and New York.

    Yet that’s the uncomfortable reality Israel has lived with every day of its modern existence. A state carved born from the ashes of the Holocaust and immediately met with war.

    Now, nearly 80 years on, Israel is still surrounded: geographically, diplomatically and ideologically by forces that don’t just criticise its policies but question whether it should exist at all.

    And yet some people can’t even fathom why Israelis feel under siege.

    You can’t defend every Israeli decision. I don’t. The country's response to Hamas sometimes shocks and appalls, and its handling of relations with Iran and the Palestinians can at times be counterproductive.

    But for those with short memories or selective sympathies, Israel’s actions take place in a context that is unique in modern geopolitics: it’s a state surrounded by enemies, some of whom don’t just hate it but want it wiped off the map entirely.

    please log in to view this image

    +3
    View gallery
    TRENDING
    The states that want Israel gone
    Let’s start with Iran given the current conflict. The Islamic Republic isn’t remotely shy about its intentions.

    For decades, Iranian leaders have referred to Israel as a ‘cancerous tumour’ and ‘the little Satan’. Iran has repeatedly pledged to wipe it from the face of the planet.

    Which is precisely why Israel is determined to prevent Iran developing nuclear weapons.

    It’s not just puffed up rhetoric either. Iran funds and arms proxies located right on Israel’s borders, including Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza.

    Iran’s nuclear ambitions, thinly disguised behind claims of civilian purposes, are rightly feared.

    Syria, despite the implosion of its own state, remains formally at war with Israel. It has offered safe passage and logistical support to anti-Israel groups.

    It has allowed Iranian military infrastructure to be set up on its territory. Every Israeli airstrike on Syrian soil counts as a pre-emptive act of self-preservation.

    While some Arab states have quietly stepped back from overt hostility thanks in part to the Abraham Accords, others remain diplomatically frozen.

    Saudi Arabia has toyed with recognition but still hasn’t made the leap. Algeria, Iraq and Yemen remain openly hostile - with the Houthis in Yemen regularly firing rockets.

    These are not minor players in the Middle East. They are regional powers with long-standing ideological or religious opposition to Israel’s existence.

    please log in to view this image

    +3
    View gallery
    Donald Trump with the Saudi Prince Mohammed Bin Salman. Saudi Arabia has toyed with recognition but hasn't made the leap

    Terrorist groups committing genocide
    Right behind the hostile states are the armed terrorist groups that operate with their blessing. Groups whose founding charters demand the destruction of Israel.

    This isn’t speculative or exaggerated, it’s all there in black and white.

    Take Hezbollah for example, the Iranian-backed militia in Lebanon. Its 1985 open letter to the world doesn’t mince words and has never been retracted: ‘Our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated.’

    It has thousands of rockets aimed at Israeli cities and has provoked multiple wars.

    And then there is Hamas, which has long governed Gaza and fired thousands of rockets into Israel during the past few years, including before the slaughter on October 7, 2023.

    Hamas’ charter literally calls for the destruction of Israel. It doesn’t talk about peace or a two-state solution. Rather, it calls for Islamic rule ‘from the river to the sea’ - a euphemism for the end of the Israel state.

    Then there’s Palestinian Islamic Jihad, smaller than Hamas but no less lethal or ideologically opposed to Israel’s very existence. PIJ is bankrolled by Iran, is responsible for suicide bombings and rocket attacks and is committed to armed resistance as the only pathway forward.

    Coexistence is not on its agenda, yet in some quarters of the Western world these groups are not even regarded as terrorist organisations. They are referred to as ‘freedom fighters’, a form of Orwellian rebranding that should concern us all.

    Countries that still say 'no' to Israel's right to exist
    As of today there are more than two dozen countries that still refuse to recognise Israel as a legitimate nation. Not rogue states or banana republics but members of the UN.

    They include Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia, as well as states already mentioned. They have no formal diplomatic relations with Israel: No embassies in Israel, no Israeli embassies in their home states, nor any acknowledgement of its existence.

    A significant portion of the Muslim world, with hundreds of millions of citizens, therefore regards the tiny Jewish state as illegitimate. Not just in policy terms but in principle, and that’s before you factor in the noisy rejections of Israel by the likes of North Korea and Venezuela.

    To be sure, the Abraham Accords - an agreement between Israel and Arab states struck under the first administration helped overcome some of the anti-Israeli sentiments around the world. The UAE, Bahrain, Morocco and Sudan all moved towards formal recognition.

    But the list of holdouts remains long and politically influential.

    It’s also worth noting that some of the so-called moderate states have no love for Israel either. They might shake hands in Washington, but their schoolbooks, media and official rhetoric still often demonises Israel and legitimises the actions of its enemies.

    The campaign to delegitimise Israel
    Perhaps the most galling players in attempts to delegitimise the state of Israel can be seen in some Western universities, NGOs and parliaments: Lopsided outrage that erupts whenever Israel defends itself, but not so much when rockets fall on Tel Aviv or families are slaughtered by jihadists.

    The nuance to understand Israeli reactions is lost in the very institutions that are supposed to use nuance as a cornerstone of their approaches and thinking.

    The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement claims to target Israeli policies, but in reality it aims to isolate and weaken the state entirely. Some of its founders are open about their end goal: not a two-state solution, but no Jewish state at all.

    And yet BDS continues to be embraced in Western cultural and academic circles writ large, particularly among those for whom context and consistency are optional extras.

    Then there’s the protest movements. In the wake of Hamas’s barbaric October 7 attack, which saw over 1,200 Israelis killed and hundreds taken hostage, university students across the West held rallies against Israel. Think about that for a moment.

    Civilians were butchered, babies beheaded and women raped, yet the global response in some quarters was not horror at the atrocities but outrage that Israel dared to respond.

    No other nation on earth would tolerate that kind of hypocrisy and nor should Israel.

    please log in to view this image

    +3
    View gallery

    Smoke rises from one off Israel's biggest hospitals - Soroka hospital in Beersheba - after being directly hit by one of Iran's ballistic missiles

    An understandable siege mentality
    So yes Israel has a siege mentality. But that’s not paranoia, it’s realism. Israel is a country surrounded by its enemies, some of them with large armies, others with well-funded terror networks, and still more with ideological purity that rejects Israel’s very right to exist. Some with nuclear weapons, others trying to develop them. How would you feel if you lived in Israel?

    It’s also a country that has each and every military response it makes dissected in the global media. Meanwhile its attackers are too often granted the soft bigotry of low expectations. When Israel makes a mistake, it’s a war crime. When Hamas targets a bus stop, it’s ‘resistance’.

    Criticising Israeli policy is fair game. After all, unlike almost every single one of its enemies, Israel is a democracy, where leaders face elections and journalists hold them to account.

    But questioning Israel’s right to exist, or pretending its strategic environment is anything other than hostile, is an abdication of intellectual honesty. And so is reflecting negatively on Israel’s responses without the context it exists within.

    Sympathy without context is misguided sentiment
    There’s no doubt the Israel Palestine conflict is messy, painful and very tragic. Innocents suffer, lives are lost and peace feels further away with every passing year.

    But if you claim to care about peace or justice you cannot ignore the basic fact that one side is trying to survive in a region where its very existence is considered provocative.

    Israel certainly isn’t perfect. No country is, including democracies. But it is a democracy surrounded by autocracies. It is a nation born out of trauma, rejected by many the moment it arrived. Ever since it has been forced to fight for the simple right to live.

    Those who rush to condemn Israel while ignoring the threats it faces every single day reveal more about their prejudices than their principles. Israel feels besieged because it is, and no amount of slogans or campus activism changes that.
     
    #94465
  6. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    30,869
    Likes Received:
    28,885
    So in the last few days the government has dropped half of its welfare reforms in chaotic fashion because its own MPs didn’t like it; and has quietly delayed introducing, and perhaps is planning to drop altogether, many of the additional employee rights Rayner has fronted up, because employers don’t like them. To be fair to Rayner she’s probably spending most of her time bricklaying and plastering to get the home building stuff on track.

    Incredibly sneakily, buried in a 183 page document, they have also ended the refugee scheme for those Afghans at risk from the Taliban because they helped the British during the war. No notice given, scheme simply ended.

    Meanwhile, in a huge vote of confidence for the British economy, the CEO of Astra Zeneca, the UKs biggest company by market capitalisation, wants to move its stock market listing and corporate domicile to the US. Yes, that’s Donald Trump’s US. Reeves wants to cut the amount we can invest in cash ISAs so we would invest in stocks ISAs instead because she thinks this will boost the British stock market. Only an idiot would pay into single market share trading investments. Perhaps she would though.

    Starmer isn’t going to last this term and I doubt Reeves will last the year.
     
    #94466

  7. WBA2_QPR3

    WBA2_QPR3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    7,446
    Likes Received:
    3,794
    Starmer is a classic middle management paper shuffler elevated beyond his abilities

    Elected solely because he wasn't a Tory

    This whole narrative that he was so busy with the geopolitical scene that he forgot what was going on at home beggars belief
     
    #94467
    Hoop-Leif likes this.
  8. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    24,580
    Likes Received:
    23,994
    Reeves looks like she's already doomed.

    please log in to view this image
     
    #94468
  9. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    24,580
    Likes Received:
    23,994
    I think his comment about taking his eye off domestic matters was an implicit criticism of Reeves.
     
    #94469
  10. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    30,869
    Likes Received:
    28,885
    Only just heard about that. Feel a bit sorry for her, out of her depth and a charisma free boss. Both of them bullied by Streeting.
     
    #94470
  11. Sooperhoop

    Sooperhoop Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    35,557
    Likes Received:
    27,959
    A year of "The grown-ups are in charge" and Starmer's shortcomings have been brutally exposed. So many key decisions have proved to be disastrously lacking in judgement with yesterday's farcical climbdown a total humiliation. The 'rebels' now know they can force their agenda on him as and when, no doubt the two child benefit cap will be the next hurdle he'll face. It's only a matter of time before he's done for, seemingly unpopular both in the country and in his own party. There are many of his new MPs whom he has never spoken to after a year in office which shows the disconnect between he and his inner circle and those outside it. It took a working class old school MP, Ian Lavery, to succinctly sum yesterday's farce up stating what many in the chamber already knew, perhaps Starmer should get out of his bubble more often...
     
    #94471
  12. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    24,580
    Likes Received:
    23,994
    Such larks on the far right.....

     
    #94472
  13. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    24,580
    Likes Received:
    23,994
    Yeah, but Bob Vylan.....

    please log in to view this image
     
    #94473
  14. kiwiqpr

    kiwiqpr Barnsie Mod

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    116,039
    Likes Received:
    232,264
    MP Zarah Sultana says she will ‘co-lead’ new party as she quits Labour for Corbyn group
    Coventry South MP, who lost whip last year, surprises some in Corbyn’s Independent Alliance with news of formal plans

    Aletha Adu Political correspondent
    Thu 3 Jul 2025 23.05 BST
    Share
    MP Zarah Sultana, suspended from Labour, has announced she is resigning from the party to join Jeremy Corbyn’s Independent Alliance.

    Sultana declared she will “co-lead the founding of a new party” – even though, while there was an agreement in principle to form one, the timing and leadership had not been settled, the Guardian understands.


    Sultana, 31, who represents Coventry South, posted a statement on Thursday evening describing Westminster as “broken” and claiming the two main parties offer “nothing but managed decline and broken promises”.

    She urged supporters to “join us” in creating what she presented as a new party.

    Her declaration took some in the alliance by surprise and has exposed divisions over strategy. While Corbyn has long hinted at plans to establish a more organised vehicle for leftwing and pro-Palestinian campaigning, he has so far avoided confirming any formal structure or leadership arrangements.

    Corbyn, 76, has not committed to the project becoming a party, or endorsed any specific leadership roles. The Guardian understands he was frustrated by Sultana’s unilateral announcement, which some regard as premature and potentially counterproductive.

    So far, he has confined his public comments to cautious remarks about the group “coming together” and “offering an alternative”, without outlining further details.


    Speaking on ITV’s Peston programme this week, he confirmed talks were under way but did not rule out other possibilities. “That grouping [of independents] will come together, there will be an alternative,” he said.

    Corbyn, the MP for Islington North, is reluctant to take on the title of leader – as consistent with his preference for collective decision-making – and is believed to think that imposing a hierarchy too soon would risk fragmenting the already fragile coalition he spent months encouraging to work together.

    Sultana was first elected in December 2019 and has sat in the Commons as an independent MP since September last year, having had the Labour whip removed after voting to abolish the two-child benefit cap.

    In a statement at the time, she said she would “do it again” and accused the government of seeking to make disabled people suffer.

    Corbyn led Labour from 2015 to 2020 before he was suspended over his response to the party’s antisemitism report. He retained his Islington North seat last year as an independent candidate.


    The Independent Alliance includes four other independent MPs who all beat Labour candidates and MPs over the party’s position on Gaza. The group has the same number of MPs – five – as Reform UK and the Democratic Unionist party, and more than the Green party and Plaid Cymru (four each).

    In her full statement, Sultana added: “A year ago I was suspended by the Labour party for voting to abolish the two-child benefit cap and lift 400,000 children out of poverty. I’d do it again.

    “I voted against scrapping winter fuel payments for pensioners. I’d do it again. Now, the government wants to make disabled people suffer; they just can’t decide how much.”

    After a year studying Starmer, I can tell you that he is at once a very kind man and a ruthless one
    Anushka Asthana
    Read more
    The move could dismantle the left-of-centre vote and present a headache for Starmer, who has repositioned Labour in the political centre.

    Corbyn’s group includes Shockat Adam, the MP for Leicester South; Ayoub Khan, the MP for Birmingham Perry Barr; Adnan Hussain, the MP for Blackburn; and Iqbal Mohamed, the MP for Dewsbury and Batley.


    Before Sultana’s statement, Corbyn had said any new party would focus on poverty, inequality and a foreign policy “based on peace rather than war”. Asked if he would lead the party, he said: “I’m here to work – I’m here to serve the people in the way I’ve always tried to do.

    “The Alliance group of MPs has worked very hard and very well together over the past year in parliament, and we’re coming up to our first anniversary.”

    Last September, Corbyn addressed a meeting to prepare for a leftwing political party named Collective which was also attended by the former Unite general secretary Len McCluskey and a number of former independent candidates.

    Key figures in the group said they hoped the party would act as an incubator for future leaders who could replace Corbyn as a figurehead of the left, and aim to contest seats at the next general election.

    At the private meeting, founders said they would begin drawing up democratic structures for a new party to launch.

    A source close to Corbyn said his attendance was not an official endorsement and that he had attended the meeting to “listen to and share a variety of views about the way forward for the left”.
     
    #94474

Share This Page