Off Topic Politics Thread

Having some fair points (they do) is very different to behaving disgracefully and ganging up on the beleaguered leader (speaking in his third language) of another sovereign nation under attack.

 

Apologies. I agree I post too long. Thank you for trusting my posts are with the best intentions, even the tongue in cheek / poke the bear ones

Not directed at you; There is a lot of talk about all Trump wants is the money (and siding with Putin) however there is another angle you could look at this IF you are open to different ideas / theories.

Trump is probably right that this war would not have started if he was in charge. The first bit started under Obama just after Obama's red lines on Syria proved to mean nothing. That sowed the seed. The second part happened under Biden.

Stay with me here So if that is true what would happen at the end of Trump's term? Putin would just reverse any deal and push on again?

So if the US has vested interests in Ukraine, and with that obviously their own people, and possibly forces in there with it, they would be there AFTER Trump's term finishes. So it could be more about ensuring that post Trump there is a deterrant from Putin moving back in. This talk of the EU stepping up is nonsense. They will still be standing back and shouting over the shoulders of those in front acting tough without doing anything but just maybe the above?

 

The US spin on their spending is hilarious. Trump keeps repeating the same $350 billion lie. The truth in terms of actual CASH to Ukraine is closer to $40 billion, with the rest going to US arms manufacturers as they unloaded out of date military equiment.

 

He knows it’s a weak point for liberal democracies, as liberals want to offer help and the populist right use it as a stick to bash liberals with and a carrot to encourage their support with

Dictatorships don’t have those ethical quandaries

 

I think everyone agrees that. Zelensky suggested this minerals deal, don’t forget. All he is asking for, as anyone would, is some assurance his country’s sovereignty will be protected.

Let’s not forget the real reason this has happened, beyond any other. Revenge. Trump tried to force Zelensky to create evidence of Hunter Biden being corrupt and was impeached as Zelensky would not help him. He even brought this up during the spat.

 

I'm not an expert mate, but I'd be willing to bet that if we looked where most of these American politicians had shares, it'd be in the likes of Raytheon, Lockheed and boeing. The USA is a wartime economy and has been since the 40s.* American taxpayers are paying $$$$ straight in to their Senators pockets (other multi millionaires also benefit)


*that's why there's a lack of health care

 

I agree but that isn’t why there is a lack of healthcare. They pay far more into healthcare than most nations. They just allow it to get siphoned off by business.

 

Also, people keep saying the mineral deal protects Ukraine. Well Russia has offered the same deal, from Ukraine’s lands… so how does that work?

 

Regardless what you think of their politics, or what you thought of him as a politician, fair play to Akshata Murty and Rishi Sunak, setting up their new charity to support numeracy education. A very good thing.

 

Dr Seuss, 1941. Who says history doesn’t repeat itself?

 

Forget the money. Trump does not understand morality and most other countries know that supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do

 

^^^This. Just this.

 

One point, that may have been mentioned elsewhere, is that Zelensky is (was) a comedian, probably well-used to being heckled and thinking on his feet, so attempts to ambush him by Trump and Vance by, in their eyes, clever comments, will be meat and drink to Zelensky. He is well able to stand his ground in a debate, and 'give as good as he gets'

 

War has always been great business for the US. Its not long since we finished paying the US for lend lease from WW2.

 

2006 in fact, a mere 61 years since the end of the Second World War.

 

The other thing to consider is that while the left, the warmongering politicians and journalists all beat their chests, it would likely take UK/Europe about a decade to have a military strong enough to take on Russia.

Without the US, nato has no cards to play either.

 

Of course. I think most people realise that too. Though 'take on Russia' (bad idea) is very different to 'keep Russia at bay' (worth looking into, seeing as they're having to pour in N Korean troops). I don't think anyone sensible wants to prolong this though (and please be better than saying Zelenskyy wants to. He doesn't at all).

 

Why do you keep replying to him? I am really curious how you can accept the anti-European rhetoric without pushback. He knows full well we all want peace, but uses this right wing talking point that it is peace Trump’s way or we have WW3. What happened to telling Putin to get out of Ukraine’s lands? What happened to treating leaders with respect?

The disingenuous hard right are all about this left/right divide. It is the core of their beings. But this issue now isn’t about the difference between centre left and right. It is about decency and democratic values. It is about a man so foul he saves the Tate brothers and crucifies Zelensky.

And this guy you respond to is so deep in his well of hate that he cannot even say Trump got this wrong.

 

It seemed from the discussion yesterday that Zelensky would rather keep things going.
Some simple steps that he could take; he refuses. An election, for one.

Trump doesn’t want to be a war-time President, especially a war he doesn’t think is necessary or good for business, Trump wants to usher in an AI Golden Age, send rockets to Mars, and American living standards to the moon; a 21st Century tycoon economy.

He wants peace for Ukraine and Russia as he knows that thousands are senselessly dying every week, and knows his presidency and the country cannot cope with hundreds of Americans coming home in body bags every month.

And so he wanted to make a deal with Zelenskyy, make a deal with Russia, and America gets paid, it's a crude outcome but its aligned with reality.

But Zelenskyy doesn’t want that, he wants American men and weapons to win the war and make Russia to pay, while the EU have gassed him up to believe this possible because the EU are clinging to this war as a chance to project the veneer of power that they cannot possibly muster domestically due Populist parties eroding their authority at home.

However, as Trump asked Keir to much nervous laughter, can you take on Russia alone?

America knows without them the EU cannot continue this charade, but more than that the Americans are disgusted with the EU, they view them as a drunk Uncle that has run out of goodwill.

How they are supressing the free-speech of their citizens, failing to protect their own borders, yet grandstanding off the back of the US defence budget?

 

Because as an adult, to a degree I don’t like to give up on people. Because not everything Os says is wrong (a lot of it is, but there are nuggets of sense). Because I’m not tribal in my views. Because I welcome discussion. Because even if on here he reverts to win/lose binary thinking, perhaps some of the more sensibly presented views drip feed in.