Off Topic Politics Thread

I don’t live in the USA?

 

Ethnosupremacist movements are bad. White supremacist or Jewish supremacist or Hindu supremacist or Serb supremacist or Hutu supremacist, they all have similar characteristics and all trend in the same direction: the dehumanization, brutalization and often extermination of those deemed to be lesser.

Israel has a Jewish supremacist government, and a large and growing segment of the populace has been radicalized. What were once extreme fringe positions are increasingly mainstream; eliminationist rhetoric comes from cabinet ministers, the state encourages settler violence and protects those who carry it out, and the bar keeps getting raised higher and higher...see the increasing talk of a Greater Israel not only dispossessing all of the Palestinian territories, but incorporating parts of Jordan and/or the Sinai.

It is not antisemitic to oppose Jewish supremacism any more than it is anti-white to oppose white supremacy. So long as the state of Israel continues to pursue Jewish supremacist policies, it is entirely correct that Israel should be criticized, and politically isolated. There is still a road back, but if the current state of play persists and the segment of the population that is radicalized grows larger, there might not be one for much longer.

 

My best friend at school was Jewish, and his whole family were vehemently anti-Zionist and in favour of a peaceful solution to the Palestinian-Israeli issue. Anti-Zionism does not preclude support for the Israeli state, but more being for a solution which shares that land with the people who have always lived there.

 

I have to tell you that 92% of Jews are Zionists. Of those the vast majority are in favour of a 2 state solution. The two are absolutely not exclusive.

 

Zionism originally just meant support for the existence of an Israeli state, but the term has become associated with Israeli ultranationalism, which excludes any place for Palestinians. This is the position of the current Israeli government.

 

I don’t know if you don’t care about the facts or just don’t know them. Israel has a coalition government. Not a nationalist one. The approval ratings of the government members are lowest for the ultranationalist contingent and highest for the centrist contingent.

Israel has a 20% Arab Muslim population. Those Arabs have full rights, one is a supreme caught judge. Hundreds are fighting for the IDF. That is quite literally not a white supremacist ethnostate. Anyone who says otherwise has swallowed Hamas propaganda to such an extent that they are willing to ignore facts. This miracle in the Middle East of Jews and Arabs living side by side in Israel is even more spectacular given Israel was formed from Jews who were booted out of actual ethnostates like Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Morocco etc as well as those with no home after the holocaust.

I severely urge you to read some more rounded sources of fact, history and information.

edit: just to add, the Hamas attacks on the Israelis in the southern kibbutzim, the most peace loving, leftist, pro Palestinian of the whole country have led to the population becoming angry. But they are not radicalised. The polls make that clear. Which is a miracle really, because I would be if it were my kids being held hostage/were killed infront of my eyes.

 

This is the problem. You’re using the definition of Zionism that the Muslim brotherhood have promoted for years and now Hamas. Zionism remains what it was originally. A belief that Jews have a right to their indigenous land. It has now become more of a necessity than a belief. Nobody else gets to define the term. Certainly not those who seek the destruction of the Jewish people and their only state. Surely you can see that?!

 

No, the problem is that there are different definitions of Zionism among Jews, ranging from a pluralist state to extermination of the Palestinians. Don’t put words in my mouth.

 

No the definition is the founding definition. There are ultrazionosts just as there are ultranationalist Brits and Ultra socialists. But we don’t allow our own movements to be defined by the extremists. Why would Zionism possibly ever be different? Particularly given the response of parts of the world to 7/10.

And I’m not putting words in your mouth at all. A huge problem is people seeking to define Zionism to suit their own means. I’m not suggesting you are, but people are just parroting what they’re being told about it by movements who seek to undermine Israel.

 

It has a coalition government consisting of a right-wing party and several ultranationalist ones.

Israeli law states that the right to exercise national self-determination is 'unique to the Jewish people'. Moves have been afoot for years to reduce the rights of Arabs; the Supreme Court has struck many of them down, which (along with attempts to protect Bibi from the consequences of his corruption) is a driving force behind attempts to weaken or outright end judicial review of legislation.

They are quite literally not "living side by side", given that communities have the ability to reject newcomers, something that has been used to blanket ban Arabs from moving in. More than half of Jewish Israelis believe that Arabs should be banned from purchasing property outside of Arab localities:

https://en.idi.org.il/media/17869/final-conditional-partnership-2021-website.pdf

And the current government has advanced efforts to expand this:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/...ting-palestinian-citizens-living-jewish-areas

That's not some random. That is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Justice, speaking in favour of apartheid in the Galilee.

 

Okay, let’s agree to disagree on the way Herzi’s original definition of Zionism has been modified by various actors over the last 128 years. The point is that we both agree that disagreeing with the actions of the current ultra-right Israeli government is not in itself antisemitic.

You are probably also aware that the original meaning of “Semitic” refers to descendants of Sem, one of Noah’s sons, and includes both Jews and Arabs.

 

Lol yes I am aware. But antisemitism means what it means. So talking through the semantics of the word is irrelevant to its abuses.

We do both agree on that point though - for sure.

 

There are some facts in what you say. But, to be clear, the self determination law was hugely controversial and was deemed necessary for safety. Many don’t agree with it. But why do you pick out Israel for being an apartheid state where it is clearly far less so than all of the bordering states who forcefully banished its Jewish populations? Why does the Jewish state rub you up the wrong way and you don’t make mention of the history and persecution that has led to that paranoid need of self preservation?

I think you’d benefit from broadening your sources to more balanced ones than Middle East eye, which is overtly antisemitic as well as being anti Israel. I assume you’ve never been to Israel? Quite a sight seeing Arabs and Jews praying side by side. Good luck seeing it literally anywhere else in the Middle East.

 

"Necessary for safety" has been at the heart of every apartheid and eliminationist movement, for what it's worth. Srebrenica for "necessary for safety". The Armenian genocide was "necessary for safety". The massacre of Tutsi and moderate Hutus was "necessary for safety". There is no easier way to convince people to turn on their neighbours than to convince them that it is necessary for safety.

Because it's a democracy, and the rest are authoritarian governments. Same reason I have been vocal about the mainstreaming of the Hindu nationalist movement in India, and Erdogan pulling Turkey into Islamism. There is the possibility of change in democracies, but equally there is the alarming realization that those tendencies reflect the will of the majority of the public.

The Arab authoritarian governments are awful. They have long been awful, and will continue to be awful. And the closer Israel comes to resembling them -- and it's getting closer -- the more awful Israel will be. And the more I will advocate, as I do for other authoritarian governments, that they be politically marginalized.

It's Middle East Eye using a direct quote...it just happened to be the top hit when I went looking for that quote. Here's the Times of Israel with the same quote:

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israel-is-mired-in-an-internal-crisis/

Or the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...hington-political-delusion-netanyahu-protest/

 

As usual, Schad knows everything

Your posts do make me laugh

 

You’re always moaning about the state of the country, the “woke mind virus” affecting it’s people, other nonsense.

 

It’s mind boggling to me that someone (who has never visited or seen with their own eyes) can trivialise Israel’s thirst for safety and pretend it’s some sort of platform for hate, given what’s happened to Jews in living memory for some. if you’re not old enough to remember real life Jew hate, then just rewind back to 7/10 when hundreds of thousands celebrated before Israel had responded. That is why Zionism is more important than ever. It is about safety. No myth, no pretence.

The perverse obsession people have with one tiny, tiny Jewish state that is surrounded by Islamic ethnostates craving its destruction is just weird really.

 

One tiny, Jewish state with nuclear weapons that is currently ethnically cleansing an area with a population in the millions. You can do the "it's weird, really" thing all you want, but the reason people think that the actions of the state of Israel are bad is that the actions of the state of Israel are bad.

If you want to say that anyone that criticizes the state of Israel is an antisemite, come out and say it. Stop doing the chickenshit "really weird ngl" dance.

 

There is a woke mind virus. I don’t care that you choose to ignore it just because you have been brainwashed by propaganda.

It’s the same virus that tells me I’m far-right for noticing that my constituency is completely different in the last 20 years:








I’m NOT racist. I know that many of these people bring new & good things to the country.

But you and those on the left are trying to tell me to ignore the evidence of both data and my own eyes and tell me that mass immigration isn’t changing anything. At the very least there are real genuine concerns about letting millions of people (documented and undocumented) into the country and the impact it will have on infrastructure, culture and society.

You try and tell me that there is no LBGT agenda trying to sexualise our kids and create gender dysphoria.

But all these things I see everywhere, both with my eyes and in all of the data.

So yes. There is a woke mind virus. It begins with the uni party globalists and their depopulation agenda. It will continue with Starmer or Sunak if either of those win.

 

Utter raving batshit crazy bollocks mind virus.