1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

(OT) Is Suicide Cowardly?

Discussion in 'Newcastle United' started by Bullshit Man, Nov 28, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Chappaz

    Chappaz Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    6,754
    Likes Received:
    12
    Well, look at my last sentence in that post. I don't know for sure so I'm happy for someone to educate me with some evidence.

    However, my point is that there's no way someone can believe that their killing themselves won't cause some sort of grief, unless a person genuinely, genuinely believes that his loved ones and children want him to die and would be happy if it happened.

    If a guy genuinely believes that his wife wants him to die, his parents want him to die, and his children want him to die, so he tries to commit suicide as a selfless act, then that's beyond depression and into the realms of complete mental insanity.
     
    #41
  2. Mod Face

    Mod Face Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,224
    Likes Received:
    122
    This. Clinical depression isn't the same as people who mope about feeling sorry for themselves. Many people self diagnose themselves as 'depressed' but proper manic depression is hell, in a dark moment you really can't see anything else and I guess, yeah, you become 'selfish' but NOT through choice.
     
    #42
  3. Darren Peacock’s Ponytail

    Darren Peacock’s Ponytail Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    34,925
    Likes Received:
    23,825
    I think that there are cases where both arguments are correct. Depression is a mental condition which can and does cloud judgements which can as cabluigi says "completely warp the way you think". On the other hand, less severe forms of depression will as Chappaz said cloub your judgement to think you have no way out but they can still see the repercussions of said actions and I have family members who have fallen into both categories. Other stimulants such as alcohol can also enhance said desires (I know its the wrong word but can't think of an alternative)
     
    #43
  4. Ameobi's Apprentice

    Ameobi's Apprentice Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,095
    Likes Received:
    3
    He would've loved his family and it must have been such a horrible decision to make, but he must have been suffering incredibly bad to take his life. His family will be hurting with what has happend and that's the backlash of suicide, and i'm sure he knew that when he made his mind up.

    It's not "all dandy", a great man has died, yes he's died by his own actions, but he's no longer with us and that's the sad thing. I've never said it's acceptable but he must have been in such a difficult position to do what he's done. Yes, by definition it is deemed 'selfish' but something has triggered him to do what he's done, it will probably end up coming out in the media soon enough.
     
    #44
  5. Hugh Briss

    Hugh Briss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Messages:
    10,011
    Likes Received:
    834
    There is a world of difference between "cowardly" and "selfish".

    If Gary Speed was indeed suffering with depression, both of those words are thrown out. Depression is a very serious and genuine mental illness, you cannot label his decision to take his own life as anything other than tragic.
     
    #45
  6. cabluigi

    cabluigi Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,048
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah mate, we don't know for sure to what extent Gary Speed was suffering, but clinical depression is actually considered to be a mental disorder.

    I thought exactly the same as you, before I read Marcus Trescothick's book, then I researched the subject further, and it completely changed my perspective!
     
    #46

  7. Chappaz

    Chappaz Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    6,754
    Likes Received:
    12
    Uhm, the whole argument other people are putting forward is that depression causes you NOT to realise or think about the ramifications of pain and heartbreak on loved ones and children.

    What you're suggesting is that he could have known full well how much it would destroy and traumatise his kids and wife (especially as is wife found him hanging in their family home dead) but due to the depression he was feeling, he just didn't care enough?

    If that is the case then yes, it's selfish. The only way I'd consider depression a valid 'excuse' for doing something like this to so many people who loved and cared for him is if his rational thought really was warped to the point of him genuinely believing that all of his close family and friends would be happier with him dead.

    Believe me, I know it's a mental disorder, and it can be an extremely serious one. Especially manic depression, i.e. bipolar disorder.

    However, it's a whole different kettle of fish if we talk about depression warping someone's basic instincts and basic rational thought to the point where they don't realise that killing themselves would cause at least some form of grief.
     
    #47
  8. Hugh Briss

    Hugh Briss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Messages:
    10,011
    Likes Received:
    834
    It's very clear that you don't suffer with depression, and judging from what you've written, it would appear you have never spoken to anyone who does suffer with it.

    Believe me when I say that there is nothing moral entering the mind of someone who wants to end their life - it's purely mental torture for that person to continue to live and until you have the slightest bit of experience of it, I suggest you stop trying to label people and the actions they take when suffering this horrible illness.

    It's utterly pointless you trying to understand it as you never will, until you experience it first hand - I hope you never do.
     
    #48
  9. Mod Face

    Mod Face Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,224
    Likes Received:
    122
    But in a depressed state one can justify the grief if you genuinely believe they will be better off without you in the long run. That can then turn to guilt that you are being selfish and then it just escalates to further hatred towards yourself. Serious depression can make a person incredibly self-centred when it hits hard.
     
    #49
  10. Lucaaas

    Lucaaas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    3,980
    Maybe he wanted them to find him, maybe he took comfort in the fact that he would be found by loved ones? Gary loved his family by all accounts, so he wouldn't have deliberately hurt any of them.

    Anyway, if you're going to committ suicide he probably wanted his family to see that he was dead first, rather than get the news secondhand OR his body not being found for weeks/months and the family not knowing. I think you're truly underestimating how hard depression is to cope with, you can't just have a cup of tea and a biscuit with a mate and everything turns out better. You lose the will to live, and negative/paranoid thoughts cloud your judgement.
     
    #50
  11. Ameobi's Apprentice

    Ameobi's Apprentice Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,095
    Likes Received:
    3
    Well nobody knew his thoughts so we can debate this all we want, he might have been thinking of the ramifications, he might not have been, we'll never know now. He must have been in a dark place in his mind for him to turn to suicide.
     
    #51
  12. stopthepress

    stopthepress Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2011
    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the act of committing suicide actually takes a lot of bravery, because the body wants to live and the mind has to over-rule it. Listening to Collymore talk about his illness, it seems obvious to me that he doesn't really have the balls to go ahead and actually kill himself. Robert Enke on the other hand threw himself under a train, which is an incredibly brave thing to do.

    Regarding Gary Speed, there is a possibility that he may have done this on Saturday night and not on Sunday morning, after returning home from dinner with his wife. If this is the case then he may have been under the influence of alcohol, and that the alcohol gave him the bravery to do something irrational that he would not otherwise have done. But of course it's all rumour and speculation at the moment.
     
    #52
  13. Chappaz

    Chappaz Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    6,754
    Likes Received:
    12
    It isn't 'bravery'. It's desperation. Being brave is when you over-rule your impeding urge to kill yourself and seek help for the sake of other things - such as loved ones or children. That is bravery.

    This is the crux of the situation. Unless you're saying that depression can warp a mind enough for someone to believe that their family/friends want him dead, or that they won't care one little bit, then I'm afraid that his choice of commiting suicide deliberately hurt them.

    Again, this insinuates that depression warps logic to the point where a man cannot realise that his wife or child finding him hanging their dead would not be a painful or traumatic experience.

    I just find it hard to believe that in the moments of being so very low, there wasn't even a shred of thought about his wife or kids.
     
    #53
  14. stopthepress

    stopthepress Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2011
    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    0
    Also, the belief that "suicide is cowardly" is not the same in all cultures.

    In Japan, suicide is widely seen as a noble thing, and the correct thing to do if you've lost everything. People tend not to talk about mental health problems there, or seek medical assistance. So suicide is pretty much the only option if you want to end your suffering.

    There have been a spate of suicides in the Fukushima area since the tsunami
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZIvPRMCLr0
     
    #54
  15. Hugh Briss

    Hugh Briss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Messages:
    10,011
    Likes Received:
    834
    Still this.

    <shutup>
     
    #55
  16. Lucaaas

    Lucaaas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    3,980
    Yes, that is what I am saying. Nearly every person who attempts suicide believes their families will be happier without them, and they feel inadequate and worthless. Try to talk to some people who've tried to kill themselves, they truly believe their families will be happier with them not around. Thats why depression is very much the silent killer, it drags you down until you hate yourself and feel unworthy of the people around you.

    You think someone sound of mind would go against the basic human instinct of survival? No. So why do you believe their other instincts would be intact as their illness has robbed them of the most basic human instinct in existence ?
     
    #56
  17. SAMOC

    SAMOC New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,015
    Likes Received:
    18
    Do the press know something though?? makes you wonder with all th recent goings on, have they caused this?
     
    #57
  18. holystone

    holystone Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,786
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cowardly? Not sure. Quite why you would leave your children without your imput in their formative years is beyond my comprehension.
     
    #58
  19. Crouching Shola Hidden Talent

    Crouching Shola Hidden Talent Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes Received:
    1
    Depression is a horrific illness (one that I have encountered first hand through an immediate family member) and is something that shouldn't be underestimated.

    The whole situation is tragic, for all parties involved.
     
    #59
  20. Rum & Black for 2

    Rum & Black for 2 Champion’s League Prediction League Champion Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    30,111
    Likes Received:
    25,433
    Could not disagree more.

    If we were talking about someone of sound mind I would agree.

    However someone who commits suicide can not in my opinion be of sound mind, at least at the time they do this. I would hate to think of the torment that the person who commits suicide is going through to decide that suicide is the only solution.

    I am sure I am just like a lot of people on here in thinking that it is an absolute tragedy for the person who does it and for his family left behind but please do not judge the person who has committed suicide they have already judged themselves.
     
    #60
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page