I’m absolutely familiar. I don’t like the Israeli government at all, particularly Bibi. I’m very much open to the other side of the argument and all the nuances in between. But I fully believe Israel must defend itself to avoid being wiped off the map. Nobody else will do it for them.
Real mystery why international support for Israel has eroded. Oh well, better double down on catering to the extreme right Greater Israel yahoos, ignore any criticisms of the Israeli government, and keep committing pogroms. That'll surely prove Israel's superior moral rectitude.
my last comment literally included a criticism of the Israeli government. It’s you who is horrifically blinkered and simplistic. Please don’t use the word ‘pogrom’ without understand its meaning. It’s horrifically offensive.
The U.S. gives Israel $3.8 billion a year in military aid. And from https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23916266/us-israel-support-ally-gaza-war-aid "In recent days, US officials have reiterated their unwavering support for Israel — diplomatically, financially, and militarily. Biden, who has previously criticized Netanyahu’s right-wing government, was unequivocal in an address at the White House earlier this week: “We stand with Israel … And we will make sure Israel has what it needs to take care of its citizens, defend itself, and respond to this attack.” Lawyer are you?
ACRI subjected to a disinformation campaign designed to redirect public outrage from government shortcomings to inciting against ACRI's staff. https://www.english.acri.org.il/post/acri-will-not-succumb-to-threats "The Association for Civil Rights in Israel was created in 1972 as an independent, non-partisan not-for-profit organization with the mission of protecting human rights and civil rights in Israel and the territories under its control. ACRI is Israel's oldest and largest human rights organization."
I had to check I was on the correct thread just now. Has there been much mention of the 50 Labour Party members to quit the party over the Israel/Hamas war? Is that worthy of discussion, surely if only amongst their supporters on here, as in is it the right thing to do, will it affect their changes in a GE etc. Just surprised it didn’t get a mention.
Get the facts straight Billy, 50 councillors resigned out of 6,400. The registered. party membership is a little less than 400,000. It will have little or no consequences to the GE support. I'll just point out I'm not a member or supporter, their leadership do not share my stance on the need for electoral reform and other key issues.
A very good one thanks. that’s a drop in the ocean compared to the aid Gaza/Hamas receive so it becomes largely irrelevant. But the far more key point here is that Jews don’t feel safe in America at the moment (campuses, in particular). Jews go to Israel because they’ve been forcefully displaced from other neighbouring countries. They go to Israel because they know it’s the one place they’ll be defended. Lord Wolfson put it beautifully in the House of Lords last week when he said he’s more concerned about his daughter going out in London with a Magen David than his son serving in the IDF. That is what alone feels like. There can be no justification for that. Blindly criticising Israel without any degree of empathy for its responsibility to be the one safe place for its people is offensive to both Israelis and Jews. Jews feeling unsafe in this country is antisemitic. Misusing the word ‘pogrom’ in an online forum debate is horrifically antisemitic. Make no mistake about that.
So far, none. Might be why nobody mentioned it.* Vin * Funny how often people on here say "I'm surprised xx hasn't been mentioned on here" rather than just raising a question or point. I think they assume it's a kind of "Gotcha! Hiding from the truth'
Yours is even better. Claiming that 3.8bn is a drop in the ocean compared to the aid Gaza/Hamas receive is untrue as this Reuters article clearly explains. https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...lobal-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/ The emotive safe Jewish homeland retoric is deflection from my reply to your "nobody else will do it for them." post. I'll add this to further debunk your misinformation. "he USS Carney, a U.S. Navy guided-missile destroyer in the northern Red Sea, on Thursday shot down multiple missiles and drones launched by Iranian-backed Houthis in Yemen that the Pentagon said were potentially headed toward targets in Israel. It's also the first U.S. military action taken to defend Israel in the current crisis and with the U.S. and other countries trying to contain the conflict between Israel and Hamas" https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...-us-navy-destroyer-red-sea/story?id=104147141
Rhetoric* How much does Iran give Hamas then? It’s not emotive language, it’s fact. Anybody who has a degree of empathy or even just a tiny willingness to engage with those with opposing views, rather than just reproduce their own comments in different ways, can understand that. People who fail to see the other side are useful idiots to Hamas. I don’t know of one Jew who doesn’t lament the loss of life in Gaza and who doesn’t pray for an end to their suffering as well. Most are critical of Bibi (he would lose an election tomorrow by a landslide) and many critical of the handling of the West Bank. They see both sides, unlike you. Conversely, have you seen any Palestinian marches call for the end of Hamas? Or for the release of hostages (an undeniable war crime) so a viable conversation can be had over a ceasefire? Anybody calling for a ceasefire without that concession must know that it’s empty rhetoric. Instead we saw celebrations on 8th October attended by thousands in London, Paris, Sydney, all over the US even before Israel had responded. How do you fight or negotiate against that level of pure hate? How have these people got into our country and how do they feel safe in spewing their hate-filled, anti-western bile here? If those questions aren’t as scary to gentiles as they are to Jews, then too many heads are in too much sand. Engage your brain and open your mind to the abhorrence taking place in your own backyard and think why the sanctity of Israel is so damn important to Jewish people. There is no alternative but to fight for it or they will cease to exist. Unthinkable to have to write that given the context of why Israel was established in the first place. You can do that whilst also disagreeing with large parts of the Israeli government and possessing an innate desire for peace, for more human rights for the people of Gaza without Hamas and for a two state solution. Which, by the way, marchers in London and around the world seemingly have no desire for (ie chanting From the River to the Sea). Anyway, that’s enough for today.
Read the Reuters article for Hamas funding and more Let's get something straight I absolutely decry any challenge to Jewish families security. We have Jewish and Christian Israeli friends and family here in the Netherlands, in the UK, Israel and other countries. The police and security services have stepped up their safeguarding in Europe and elsewhere. I'll say again I'm challenging your misinformation some would regard as lies not the security issues. Oh another subtle mistake. Wolfson's quote was regarding someone wearing the Star of David not Magar David the Israeli equivalent of the Red Cross. Awaiting your edit to correct your 'errors' and an apology for the misinformation posted.
I’m not actually sure what these arguments are really about Is anyone here actually supporting Hamas’ killing or abducting of Israelis or the Israelis killing of Palestinian civilians? Does anyone here not believe in both peoples right to a secure and free homeland?
It just did get a mention, from you. But you haven’t told us what you think about it. Is it, in your opinion, the right thing for those counsellors (and now one front bencher) to do? How will it affect Labour’s chances in a GE, do you think?
Well, I was mentioning it as I dont read every single post, and have a couple on ignore that post bombardments of blurb against the incumbent Government, without much actual debate or engagement. I mentioned it in the event it hadnt been mentioned, to create a debate. I think many lefties on here think than when someone who isnt particularly left mentions something like this, it is a loaded Q, when to my mind, this is a Politics forum, for debating, let's guess - Politics. I hope this doesnt undermine Labour going into another GE, with turbulent affairs that play into the Tories hands, that snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, and wouldnt want to see the Tories back in power after the ****show that has been witnessed. I'm not sure it is the right thing for them to do, I think there needs to be solidarity and unity, which plays into the Tories hands, which has undone the Labour party before. What do you think of it Archers? Do you feel it could undermine their GE success??
Exactly . If someone says they are pro Palestinian , doesn’t mean they are pro Hamas . If someone is,pro Israeli , doesn’t mean they agree with what their military are doing .
Thank you for your denunciation of antisemitism. Eh? A Magen David is the Hebrew translation for Star of David. Which is why I said the words Magen David in my post. What on earth does the Red Cross have to do with that?! You’re legitimately insane.
Absolutely true. The problem from the Jewish perspective, is pro Palestinian marchers in our cities and around the world who blur the boundaries by chanting things like From the River to the Sea. That is unambiguously calling for Israel’s cessation which is central to Hamas’ charter and not that of Palestine. Combine that with the thousands celebrating babies being burned in ovens on 8th October before Israel had even responded. That’s pure and utter hatred that exists whether or not Israel respond with military might. I utterly condemn anybody who conflates Hamas with Palestine. In the same breath, I utterly condemn any Palestinian marching in our cities who calls for the violent destruction of Israel or who tear down pictures of kidnapped babies. These two things are also not exclusive and those inciting hate under the guise of a peace march, drinking in and spewing out the bile of the Iranian-produced leaflets being circulated, should be arrested.
Are we trying to achieve some kind of sensible consensus? I think the key argument is now whether there should be a cease fire or not. I actually think not. Why have all these people died if Israel don't get the job done now? The have to destroy the whole terror infrastructure (fill in all the tunnels, etc.) and then they need to work really hard to take the high ground (morally) for the next decade.
