Off Topic Politics Thread

They've been bankrolled by Iran, stolen £billions of aid money from the people of Gaza. That gives them infrastructure and backing to continue to plan and execute barbaric terrorist attacks for years to come. Al Qaeda didn't have the infrastructure to invade the US but it didn't stop 9/11 so I find that argument to be ridiculous. What is a proportionate response to an organisation hell-bent on your destruction? Would love to hear your ideas.

Israel has been out of Gaza for almost 20 years. That's pretty unsuccessful occupying in my book.

20 years where a Palestinian government could have put their people first and reinvested aid money into permanent infrastructure for their benefit rather than building tunnels and rockets.

 

Any thoughts on the West Bank?

 

No doubt Hamas have the ability to continue to be a persistent threat, never suggested otherwise. But it would take trillions of dollars of equipment to seriously threaten Israel, one of the most well equipped militaries in the world. And even if they got to that completely unattainable point the US would come to their defence.

The solution to all of these things is diplomacy over generations and ongoing talks to take catastrophic events off the table and gradually move towards peace. At this moment it seems unattainable but plenty of tense geopolitical situations have cooled in the past 50 years to allow for peace then prosperity.

The West Bank and East Jersulem have been increasingly settled illegally during this 'peaceful era' and whilst not officially in the Gaza Strip, Israel have placed a crippling embargo that prevents any meaningful propects for the people who live there.

 

An update on the Michelle Mone PPE fiasco and confirmation that the government were always aware of her and her husband’s involvement in the PPE company that produced nothing that could be used.

 

You won’t find many Jewish people who agree with the ultra Zionist groups who have settled there. The Abraham Accords did give Israel the right to some of that land but they shouldn’t be settling on land that is not under Israeli sovereignty.

But also the West Bank needs a viable and cohesive Palestinian government, too.

But Hamas don’t care about the West Bank explicitly. They care about continued destruction of the Jewish State.

 

Damning words about much of the PPE/HSE industry being ignored, calls not returned and advice not sought. Let's hope the inquiry leads to criminal charges for those involved in corruption that cost lives.

 

More from the covid inquiry.
"During his evidence his morning Stuart Glassborow, deputy principal private secretary to Boris Johnson during coronavirus, admitted that the government decided to go ahead with the “eat out to help out” subsidy scheme for restaurants in the summer of 2020 without getting scientific advice on the impact it might have on Covid transmission.

Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, was personally associated with the scheme, and he was embarrassed by subsequent evidence showing it led to a rise in the number of people getting Covid.

Last week the inquiry was told that Prof Chris Whitty, the CMO, called the scheme “eat out to help out the virus”.

"Eat Out to Help Out’ scheme drove new COVID-19 infections up by between 8 and 17%, new research finds."
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo...ns_up_by_between_8_and_17_new_research_finds/

 

Can 700,000 people all be ultra-zionists? If that is so, then it suggests Israel does have its own problems with extremism.

 

Violence, including murder, against Palestinians on the West Bank by Jewish settlers has increased rapidly since 7th October, and the Israeli government are turning a blind eye to it.

 

Very selective to just focus on the West Bank. One of many extremely complex strands. Most Jews and Israelis would much prefer a centrist government and do not condone the activities on the West Bank.

They also don’t like being victims of terror, having their babies burned in ovens and then seeing those things celebrated around the world. Some balance and perspective is what is needed.

 

Of course, but the vast majority of Palestinians, just like the vast majority of Jewish Israelis, are innocents and just want a peaceful life with access to water and somewhere to live and work.

 

^^

 

I don’t disagree with you at all. Everybody deserves that. But that’s the devastating impact of terrorism. Burning babies in ovens, for example, triggers off a reaction that the only thing they can be sure of is that they cannot let it happen again.

Israel only controlled 10% of the water into Gaza. So it’s unfair to lay the blame there. Hamas are the governing party, responsible for providing water, fuel, jobs and infrastructure to its people. All of that money could have been spent so differently.

It’s Hamas that Palestine and innocent Palestinians need saving from.

Similarly, many Palestinians were given jobs in Israel and had access to specialist care in Israeli hospitals.

On the subject of jobs…those passes were used by several terrorists to cross the border so have been revoked on security grounds. Suspect the UK would do exactly the same in defence, don’t you?

Israel’s only chance for existence is the total eradication of Hamas. I assume you’d agree with that indisputable fact?

Otherwise, and by Hamas’ own statements just a few days ago, they will continue to repeat the 7th October again and again until Israel’s annihilation. How do you destroy a group who hide behind its innocent civilians and, again by their own quotes from just a few days ago, enforce them to die as unwitting martyrs. Do you just stop and go home and let them be because they sacrifice their own civilians and surrender to your own fate as a result?

I can promise you it won’t stop at Israel. It’s all infidels they want to destroy. Look at the attacks against Christians in Africa, for example. Or attacks around Europe and even in this country. It’s just the Jews that are first - sound familiar?

Also, a hilarious aside to see the LGBT community’s view, too. How long do they think they’d last under Hamas?

 

This is simply untrue. Israel sells a smallish portion of Gaza's water, yes, but Israel also prevents Gazans from bringing in water from the West Bank or elsewhere. As a consequence, Gaza is almost exclusively reliant on an aquifer that is heavily contaminated with seawater, and consequently requires desalination. But with Israel blockading Gaza for the past fifteen years, they are unable to maintain the desalination capacity they have, never mind build more, resulting in a permanent water crisis.

Israel also will not allow the creation of any new water installation in the occupied territories, down to something as simple as a well, without the approval of the Israeli army. Approval that is never given.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

Water is deemed to be a state resource (extending beyond even the bounds of the internationally-recognized Israeli state), and the Palestinians aren't part of that state, so Israel routinely destroys rainwater capture cisterns, smashes irrigation systems, and redirects water away from Palestinians toward settlers, with the goal of making life unlivable and forcing Palestinians to abandon their lands.

 

Israel's stated aim of 'Destroying Hamas' is perfectly understandable, but how do you go about the destruction of an amorphous entity? If Israeli soldiers were able to line up every current member of Hamas, and kill each one, then what? Will all remaining Palestinians immediately stop being aggressive towards Israel? Or will a different group of Palestinians arise, with a desire for retribution?

Unless and until some attempt is made to win the hearts and minds of the vast majority of Palestinians, any amount of artillery firing, building destruction and enforced removal of people will not bring about a lasting peace. A diplomatic solution is the only permanent way forwards. As Churchill said 'Meeting jaw to jaw is better than war'

 

Hamas’ attack was a direct response to Israel exploring diplomatic solutions with Saudi Arabia. That would have been unthinkable 5 years ago. Wiping out Hamas brings the hope
of possibility which doesn’t exist otherwise.

 

That’s true of the West Bank but not of Gaza. Destroying and digging up pipes to use as rockets is more of an issue there. Hamas could have built as many wells as they wanted to there, could they not? We’ll have to agree to disagree but extrapolating the West Bank situation to apply for all parts of this war is diminished thinking.

 

I thought it was interesting on Question Time last week when they got on the topic of Gaza.

The audience was extremely critical of Israel and were primarily concerned about the welfare of Palestinian civilians. They were also very critical of the responses they were receiving from a member of the Board of Deputies of British Jews that was on the panel, who although sympathetic to calls for aid did appear to blur the line between Palestinian civilians and Hamas in her responses.

Now you have to bear in mind that the QT audience is weighted by the previous election results of the constituent country, so Tory voters have a plurality.

It gives the impression that Israel is losing the PR war in the West and initial sympathy over the atrocious initial attack has turned into disgust over the response among many that they would usually expect to support them.

I think this is why Israel really does need to be very careful the way it conducts itself here, although the US and the West are not going to back away from support anytime soon this will potentially be influencing future willingness to support many years down the line.

 

Building wells in Gaza only results in more water from the aquifer that is contaminated by seawater. Gaza requires water to be imported (which Israel limits to an amount a small fraction of the needs of Gaza), or desalination, which is impossible in large enough quantities under the blockade. Further, Israel routinely attacks or cuts off the electricity generation capacity for Gaza, which in turn makes desalination impossible.

And also, you keep shrugging off the actions of the Israeli government in the West Bank as if that does not factor into how people in Gaza respond. Sure, the Israeli government routinely brutalizes residents of the West Bank, but why should people in Gaza notice that? Why can't they just pretend that is some wholly separate issue that has nothing to do with Gaza, and not a deliberate attempt by the Israeli government to make the occupied territories non-viable as a future state?

We're only a week separated from the Israeli government admitting that one of its ministries recommended ethnically cleansing the whole of Gaza, pushing 2m people into tent cities in the Sinai Desert. Acting as if they're honest brokers who are simply beset by the evil Palestinians involves ignoring an awful lot of reality right in front of one's face.