Off Topic Politics Thread

I agree with Tom. I wish Os was a troll as it is such a shame that he has fallen into the trap of right wing American ideology. It isn’t even British ideology and it works around being permanently outraged rather than accepting the nuances of real life.

Gregm1988 said:

I’ll note that i made no comment about the policy. Just that the story was inconsistent and contradicted itself - pointing to it being made up. If there were legions of working class people impacted then I’d have thought they could have least published a real anecdote. Not that you should legislate on anecdotes anyway

I’m not going to attempt to deny that this will negatively impact some. What the balance is though - I have no idea. But all policies are a trade off

Worth noting that this policy was invented by a Tory and expanded by a Labour politician. So what is the proposal here? You want us to use it as a stick to beat labour with. But if it is indeed as bad as you say it is a stick to beat both parties with. So who should be voted for?

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Neither party represents true working families in this country

Osvaldorama said:

Neither party represents true working families in this country

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Nobody ever could, Os, because every family is different and has different needs. The Tories appeal to the baser instincts in people - our fears of foreigners, our fears of losing what is ours, our fears of the energy lobby - and that is always short termist and destructive for the working class overall.

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Nobody ever could, Os, because every family is different and has different needs. The Tories appeal to the baser instincts in people - our fears of foreigners, our fears of losing what is ours, our fears of the energy lobby - and that is always short termist and destructive for the working class overall.

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The Tories more closely relate to the working class at this time, because they at least are doing things to stop the erosion and degradation of the UK

Bur neither party is representing what the working class actually want.

People like you look down your nose at the working class that voted for Brexit, that aren’t happy with mass immigration & higher taxes causing the living conditions in the country to become worse and worse for people.

But the silent majority is out there. They voted for Brexit. And instead of listening to their frustrations people like you accuse them of being thick or racist. But they have valid points.

My rage at ULEZ comes because it’s yet more pain on people agar are already stretched var at breaking point

Can I ask a question. Are many of you that are happy about this stuff comfortable in life with paid of mortgages?

I feel like some of you are naive to just how hard it is for the young generation currently

Osvaldorama said:

The Tories more closely relate to the working class at this time, because they at least are doing things to stop the erosion and degradation of the UK

Bur neither party is representing what the working class actually want.

People like you look down your nose at the working class that voted for Brexit, that aren’t happy with mass immigration & higher taxes causing the living conditions in the country to become worse and worse for people.

But the silent majority is out there. They voted for Brexit. And instead of listening to their frustrations people like you accuse them of being thick or racist. But they have valid points.

My rage at ULEZ comes because it’s yet more pain on people agar are already stretched var at breaking point

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People like me? I fully understand the people who voted Brexit and why. I grew up in St Marys and never got that far away from there! I understood when the Poles were moving here en mass that it affected working class people like labourers and plumbers far more severely than the middle class- who suddenly got cheaper labour. That doesn’t mean they were right. The decent Tories knew this and the Brexit vote was forced by a loud minority and promoted by a WEALTHY RIGHT PRESS. It has benefitted nobody but a minority of wealthy people.

The working class don’t need more fear and hate.

tomw24 said:

Well I believe Os says what he believes. And this is a controversial thread where people will argue because they have completely different opinions. Why should the person in the minority be called a troll?

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I'm tending to the trolling in part due to the one line inflammatory posts with links to only to obviously dubious websites often on the alt right and, to quote Vin, "fail to engage in debate when demonstrably proven wrong".

That's me done with this and bothering with any further comment re Os's posts on this thread.

Onionman said:

You're all falling for it.

He wrote nine words. Nine. And in response, you've written hundreds of words of reasoned argument about why it's not Khan's issue and the details of why that's true. This is what trolls do and you're falling into the trap. Nine words of nonsense and a page of anger as response. He's beyond listening to reason and you have to wake up to that. You're just being trolled.

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And as a consequence this thread has become a ****ing disaster
It’s not a politics thread any more, it’s pointless
I used to get some really well informed discussion on her and now it’s the monologue rantings and pointless responses

This is what the right wants, destroy faith in everything

PS. I’m off until sanity is restored

tomw24 said:

Nope, I have to disagree with you here. I don't agree with his views at all, but regardless he's entitled to them and is allowed to express them. Maybe he doesn't debate because he gets sarcastic responses, or gets called a troll.

My view is that Os doesn't help himself with the strength of how he airs his views on here. I genuinely do not believe he is a troll but I can see how his posts can come across like he is one. And TBH his post are only inflammatory because his views are different to everyone else's. If views were equally as strong but in agreement with everyone else there would be no suggestions he is a troll. And why should he choose to listen? No reason why he has to. I do think this thread can be very toxic and people gang up on people who have different views. I've been on the receiving end when I was a Tory voter (before Covid).

I want to bang my head against the table when I read his views on climate change for example, or Trump, but not because he is a troll IMO.

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Where have I ever said or even implied that he isn't entitled to post them? Where?

You'll note that I'm not engaging with Os or the content of his idiotic post that kicked all this off, I'm engaging with the people banging their heads against the wall responding to his nonsense in the hope that he'll listen to reason. It's a fool's errand.

I'm specifically asking people not to gang up on him, FFS.

It is not victimising someone to point out that what they are reporting is blatantly not true.

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People like me? I fully understand the people who voted Brexit and why. I grew up in St Marys and never got that far away from there! I understood when the Poles were moving here en mass that it affected working class people like labourers and plumbers far more severely than the middle class- who suddenly got cheaper labour. That doesn’t mean they were right. The decent Tories knew this and the Brexit vote was forced by a loud minority and promoted by a WEALTHY RIGHT PRESS. It has benefitted nobody but a minority of wealthy people.

The working class don’t need more fear and hate.

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You are regurgitating leftist propaganda without even knowing it. “Fear and hate of the working class” is a nonsense term designed to get you to ignore the issues in the country.

It’s not fear and hate that causes outrage. It’s genuine sorrow and pain as they see hospitals and streets overflowing, house prices rocketing, childcare costs exponentially rising, crime soaring.

They feel despair as they see that almost 50% of the adult population no longer pay income tax. As the broken system causes more and more people to sponge of the few that do work an honest living.
As their rent soars to ridiculous levels due to the influx of people and shortage of housing in the UK.

As Ukraine and foreign aid budgets are seemingly bottomless, but budgets to help hungry children and disabled people in the UK are a pittance. Don’t worry though - there is limitless money to fund the full hotels booked out to house migrants that roam around outside causing trouble and selling drugs whilst paying no taxes themselves as they work cash in hand.

And then the one holiday a year the working family gets - which they can barely afford anyway - now they have to pay £12.50 each way in the ULEZ, on top of the £150 parking and £5 drop off fee to Heathrow.

This and more is what working families are feeling right now.

I just don’t understand how people can see all of this and then think “yep more government power and more taxes are a good idea”. It isn’t a racial thing. It isn’t a hatred thing. It’s a “this country is failing all of the people that live here” thing.

Onionman said:

Where have I ever said or even implied that he isn't entitled to post them? Where?

You'll note that I'm not engaging with Os or the content of his idiotic post that kicked all this off, I'm engaging with the people banging their heads against the wall responding to his nonsense in the hope that he'll listen to reason. It's a fool's errand.

I'm specifically asking people not to gang up on him, FFS.

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I never said you were ganging up on him. But it does happen on here regularly. It probably is a fool's errand having a debate on here because people have their political views and are very unlikely to change them. TBH the only worthwhile use of this thread is when there is big political news or a general election. The rest of the time it's just a load of waffle.

Osvaldorama said:

I just don’t understand how people can see all of this and then think “yep more government power and more taxes are a good idea”. It isn’t a racial thing. It isn’t a hatred thing. It’s a “this country is failing all of the people that live here” thing.

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migrants that roam around outside causing trouble and selling drugs]/quote]

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Whist i don't agree with a lot O's says, I also agree that if you don't agree, don't take the bait. The issue is I think that sometimes O's says things like it is now fact (when really a bit of research would show it is far from it). This makes people react and then fight it out.

I think that we need debate, but the problem with an online forum is that you really can't debate by writing something then waiting for a reaction etc. In person you get the nuances of what people are saying and can reply sooner.

This thread is very left biased, so anyone even slightly centre or right will be jumped on. Politics isn't completely binary. The left aren't always the saviours and the right aren't always the devils. Most of the time lol, but not always.

What i am trying to say is we all are entitled to opinions and entitled to express them, if you don't agree with someone and you know they will never change what they are saying, just ignore, move on. Life is too short.

Osvaldorama said:

You are regurgitating leftist propaganda without even knowing it. “Fear and hate of the working class” is a nonsense term designed to get you to ignore the issues in the country.

It’s not fear and hate that causes outrage. It’s genuine sorrow and pain as they see hospitals and streets overflowing, house prices rocketing, childcare costs exponentially rising, crime soaring.

They feel despair as they see that almost 50% of the adult population no longer pay income tax. As the broken system causes more and more people to sponge of the few that do work an honest living.
As their rent soars to ridiculous levels due to the influx of people and shortage of housing in the UK.

As Ukraine and foreign aid budgets are seemingly bottomless, but budgets to help hungry children and disabled people in the UK are a pittance. Don’t worry though - there is limitless money to fund the full hotels booked out to house migrants that roam around outside causing trouble and selling drugs whilst paying no taxes themselves as they work cash in hand.

And then the one holiday a year the working family gets - which they can barely afford anyway - now they have to pay £12.50 each way in the ULEZ, on top of the £150 parking and £5 drop off fee to Heathrow.

This and more is what working families are feeling right now.

I just don’t understand how people can see all of this and then think “yep more government power and more taxes are a good idea”. It isn’t a racial thing. It isn’t a hatred thing. It’s a “this country is failing all of the people that live here” thing.

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Mate 60% of UK adults pay income tax abd the vast majority of the rest are scraping a living under the tax bracket. You sound like you hate poor people - using this 50% figure to beat the rest of the population - and yet you pretend to defend them. Under the tories, we have gradually seen a rise in low income families who cannot earn enough to pay tax. Don’t buy that underclass nonsense.

Osvaldorama said:

Can I ask a question. Are many of you that are happy about this stuff comfortable in life with paid of mortgages?

I feel like some of you are naive to just how hard it is for the young generation currently

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Again, nonsense. What on earth qualifies you to make these sort of judgements about other posters? As someone who lives in London, and whose family mostly lives in London, I reckon I’m far better placed to talk about ULEZ than you are mate. And I can assure you that what is making life in London almost impossibly difficult for my son’s generation isn’t ULEZ, it’s the broken housing market, and unregulated private rental sector. Which Sadiq Khan has made some progress in addressing, after the free market casino capitalism of the Boris Johnson mayoralty.

So spare me the working class hero crap in future please - protecting the rights of suburbanites in Uxbridge to come into town and choke my grandkids with their car fumes is not speaking up for the downtrodden masses.

Archers Road said:

Again, nonsense. What on earth qualifies you to make these sort of judgements about other posters? As someone who lives in London, and whose family mostly lives in London, I reckon I’m far better placed to talk about ULEZ than you are mate. And I can assure you that what is making life in London almost impossibly difficult for my son’s generation isn’t ULEZ, it’s the broken housing market, and unregulated private rental sector. Which Sadiq Khan has made some progress in addressing, after the free market casino capitalism of the Boris Johnson mayoralty.

So spare me the working class hero crap in future please - protecting the rights of suburbanites in Uxbridge to come into town and choke my grandkids with their car fumes is not speaking up for the downtrodden masses.

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So naive. It’s unreal. Like a sheep voting yourself to the slaughter. Crazy.

I notice you didn’t answer. Paid off mortgage, sitting pretty, huh?

Osvaldorama said:

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Sadiq Khan is evil and hates the working class

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No he isn't and no he doesn't. (Seven words in my reasoned answer)

Lemons and Oranges said:

No he isn't and no he doesn't. (Seven words in my reasoned answer)

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He is. He’s also a self-serving moron. The same guy wants to cut down trees to make bike lanes in the name of the “climate crisis”. Lol.

It’s all a ****ing scam.

I sometimes volunteer and help out with the local food bank. People that have TWO jobs still can’t afford to make ends meet. They are working as hard as the physically can to support their families, and they still can’t do it in the current economy.

Yet you have morons like Sadiq khan and the Tories piling on the misery with **** policies that cause nothing but more inflation and hit the poor the hardest.

So no I am not trolling. My opinions are genuinely held. I believe that we need to focus on helping people in the short term instead of focusing on imaginary climate crisis which may never happen. We have real problems to sort out right ****ing now.

Osvaldorama said:

He is. He’s also a self-serving moron. The same guy wants to cut down trees to make bike lanes in the name of the “climate crisis”. Lol.

It’s all a ****ing scam.

I sometimes volunteer and help out with the local food bank. People that have TWO jobs still can’t afford to make ends meet. They are working as hard as the physically can to support their families, and they still can’t do it in the current economy.

Yet you have morons like Sadiq khan and the Tories piling on the misery with **** policies that cause nothing but more inflation and hit the poor the hardest.

So no I am not trolling. My opinions are genuinely held. I believe that we need to focus on helping people in the short term instead of focusing on imaginary climate crisis which may never happen. We have real problems to sort out right ****ing now.

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Oñe way poorer people can be helped is by making public transport free, or much cheaper and affordable. Here in Mallorca, public transport is "gratis," because public transport is a service and not a profit making machine. The cost.comes out of thepublic purse, the coffers of which are boosted by tourists paying a tax!