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Grand Prix thread HUNGARIAN GRAND PRIX 2023

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by ched999uk, Jul 20, 2023.

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Who will finish first?

Poll closed Jul 22, 2023.
  1. Max Verstappen

    50.0%
  2. Charles Leclerc

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Daniel Ricciardo

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Fernando Alonso

    25.0%
  5. Lewis Hamilton

    25.0%
  6. George Russell

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Lando Norris

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Carlos Sainz

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Sergio Perez

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Any Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Julius Caesar

    Julius Caesar Well-Known Member
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    I don't think drivers not pushing because of tyres or fuel is the issue. I mean we have sprint races that are advertised as solving that problem and they suck.

    The main reason for not pushing is uncompetitive races. Only an idiot is going flat out if he's 20 seconds behind the car Infront and 10 seconds ahead of the car behind. Even in the "good old days" doing that was just asking for the car to break.

    The other problem I think is that when the drivers are pushing it's not visually obvious anymore. In recent races we've heard Norris and Hamilton shout on the radio that they're already pushing 100% when told to up the pace. I also don't think the drivers are so incompetent as to be getting track limits penalties whilst cruising.

    The cars are just so big and heavy. When the cars were lighter and more nimble / prone to oversteer or breaking traction, you could see the drivers wrestling with them more
     
    #101
  2. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    Good thoughts there.

    they all want to save stuff and they all get a benefit from doing so.
     
    #102
  3. duggie2000

    duggie2000 Well-Known Member

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    I am beginning to think there is something illegal with Verstappens car, Perez in allegedly the same car is a second a lap slower which means he is unable to challenge the chosen son

    When Mercedes were the best cars, Lewis had to beat his team mate before he could beat the rest of the field now there is no competition what so ever and it is making F1 almost unwatchable
     
    #103
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  4. SgtBhaji

    SgtBhaji Well-Known Member

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    Watching them head to head, it's certainly like they're in completely different machinery, but the reality is most likely that the car is built around Max, Max is at the peak of his powers and Checo has completely lost his head.
     
    #104
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  5. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Yeah I agree with this. Perez does have issues with tyre warmup which have limited his ability to challenge, but I don't think Max's dominance over Perez is any different to Schumacher over Barichello/Irvine, or Alonso over Fisichella/Piquet Jr/Massa/Vandoorne.
     
    #105
  6. Sportista

    Sportista Well-Known Member

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    With Irvine/Barrichello/Massa/Bottas you know they were brought in to be a number two, either contractually or explicitly and so they knew their focus was always essentially on beating everybody else. With Sergio, you wonder if anyone has had that chat with him and if they have, you whether the fact that the year starts and ends with tracks that suit him, is leading to him believing otherwise anyhow. I really have the impression of a driver overreaching and so making mistakes / getting frustrated and that leading to underperformance (in combination with some poor luck, that may have reinforced the same behaviours).

    I think we’ve reached the point now also, where for Max the benefits of dominating have started to compound, for example he must have much more engine life available than Perez, who has been recovering through the field whilst Max has been turned down since lap 5 or whatever. As such “different cars” may now be somewhat true, but not in the underhand way originally suggested.
     
    #106
  7. moreinjuredthanowen

    moreinjuredthanowen Mr Brightside

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    tbh, we are only a race or two away from people saying redbulls advantage was diminished and all that jazz.

    reality is on short tracks over 1 lap the gaps are tighter, redbull sailed off at Silverstone and it absolutely sailed off here.

    Once nobody is within 1 second for drs catch up it just drives away on the straights.

    but the annoying thing is very bloody car can easily catch up as there's not one thing unique about that car nor impossible to copy and the power unit is not the most powerful one.

    teams have started copying but thr major ones like merc only lately

    red bull will perfect this regulation design while thr rest are getting towards this year's red bull as they are so so far behind.
     
    #107
  8. Julius Caesar

    Julius Caesar Well-Known Member
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    Alex Albon had some interesting things to say about what it's like to drive the same car as Max earlier this year
    I think it's pretty notable that Perez said he was adopting setups more similar to Max's around the Spanish grand prix and his pace has dropped off a cliff since.

    He is a decent midfield level driver who's contorting himself out of shape trying to match Max in a car that doesn't suit him and only going slower as a result. Then after a couple of bad results he loses all confidence and the spiral continues

    Same story as Albon and Gasly before him
     
    #108
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2023
  9. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    It is a familiar story with Redbull. Something isn't right. It is Max's team, he dictates certain things. He doesn't like being challenged. But if you are a fan of Max, you will be very happy. Lewis had his haters, Max has his.
     
    #109
  10. Sportista

    Sportista Well-Known Member

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    I think to some extent this is a circular argument, if you’re paired with great driver, they are going to take the car to places you can’t go and then you’ll get statements like this. Similarly if that’s the direction that makes the car win/over-perform the team will follow that direction especially if you are at the front of the field (winning is everything). I also remember that Perez was vocal last year about how this car was being developed to suit him more than last years.

    Look at Riccardo and Norris at McLaren for a similar situation, where you’d be hard pressed to say that McLaren were nefariously sabotaging Riccardo to Norris’ benefit, indeed when you’re mid grid it’s typically a better way to accrue points to have two evenly performing cars. Or the counter example of Ferrari, which on the surface has a lead driver and while Sainz is less happy with the car than Leclerc who probably does have the biggest say in development direction, but they are relatively evenly matched. If the pendulum of performance suddenly swung Leclerc’s way, I think you’d hear a lot more from Sainz.
     
    #110
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  11. Justjazz

    Justjazz Well-Known Member

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    More or less my thoughts but stated with more eloquence. I have not606 on my small older phone with a keyboard too small which results in shorter messages.
    However, I do think Max is more vocal in keeping Perez in place. There was the big argument about Perez and his Monaco spin which had Max react. As such I think Max doesn't share and that makes it harder for Perez. I would love to see how the strategy meetings are conducted, along with the debriefs. I doubt they are the same as other teams with an open sharing of thoughts and data, pre and post race.
     
    #111
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