This is opening up a new avenue of debate regarding effective management style. While Ferguson undoubtedly got the results, what impact did he have on player psychology? Some were undoubtedly inspires, others intimidated by him. For me I would have loved to have played under Bobby Robson, not because of what he said but his actions. Oñe standout being taking the Ipswich players to a coalmine.
Ferguson was old school, like Cloughie. His players loved him but also feared him a little. One of those people who, when he walked in the dressing room, you can bet no one was in any doubt who the governor was. But you’re right, every decent manager has their own style, which suits their own personality. I think one of Robson’s strengths was, he’d listen to his players and was willing to be persuaded by their ideas. Like changing to a sweeper system during Italia 90.
I know you were being snide as usual here, but to answer your question: - Mass immigration - Health tourists - Aging population - Unhealthy society of people that take no accountability for themselves - Poor management
I would like to address your first point about doing minimal work for maximum.pay. For many years Inlive in Fareham where a considerable number of people were employed in the navy. As my next door neighbour was oñe, I often heard stories about how little work they were actually doing prior to re-entering civvy street. As for throwing money about, I was recently talking with a Democrat supporting lady from.Washington State. Apparently, that state spent billions supporting people during covid. Guess what - these people prefer state support rather than returning to work.
Reading much of the above about chronic waste and mismanagement across a number of sectors and add the massive underinvestment and years of austerity brought about by the tory incumbents I'm amazed anything at all gets done.
I really do understand what you're saying but I know from conversations with customers when I started my business (oddly enough about 13 years ago so I happen to be able to date it) they were saying exactly the same thing then. That makes me think the inefficiencies in the NHS were there even when it was running better. I also understand the covid issue but waiting lists were on a strong upward trend before covid hit. I can't post pics on my phone but I'll try and find a graph when I'm next on the PC. I certainly don't think it's just money but something has changed. Vin PS, In passing, almost every comment you've made about the NHS workrate could have been said about many of the employees at IBM when I worked there. I think it just happens in large organisations.
Libby, like I said I also worked inside NHS hospitals for a bit, just before & during covid. I didn’t work directly for the NHS, but I saw enough to know you are 100% correct. Many people on this thread are still living in the old reality where the NHS works and can be saved. It is too far gone now. It is unrecoverable without huge, sweeping, systemic change. Vin, as usual, thinks he knows everything - knows more than people with direct experience in these issues
Immigration is one of the major causes of the stress on the system. There is a huge influx of people into the UK meaning services get stretched. That doesn’t diminish the fantastic work done by many amazing immigrants working in the NHS. It is just the reality
I worked for the NHS in hospitals for 38 years, does that count as direct experience? Just thought I’d check.
Surprised that no one has piked up in the news that it now very much looks like the SAS were involved in war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq, one unit reported assoicated with theexecution of 54 civilians. Given the furore regarding the attrocities carried out by the Russians in Ukraine and also in light of the recent cpirt case in Australia, isn't it time that all actions in war be considered criminal ? I think the notion of "special forces" is an issue that the United Nations needs to consider given that in even "civilized" countries , such units appear to be operating outside the law.
Yes agree that the waiting lists were definitely increasing prior to covid but that certainly exacerbated the issue due to the government locking everybody in their homes and making it harder to access medical care for any other ailments. That's a once in a lifetime issue that was always going to have a huge impact and, along with denying children education, was one of our biggest failings during the pandemic imo. Look, I'm not saying that the service hasn't been deliberately run down and neglected by the Tories as it almost certainly has done along with many other public services. However that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss and address the deeper issues that aren't impacted by the government of the day. It's similar to what I was mentioning last week regarding extreme obesity and that if you keep telling people that it's not their fault but everyone else's then there's not much motivation for them to change things. Too many people are willing to hide behind a poor government for their failing service rather than look at themselves/their team and what they could do differently. I agree a lot of these problems are common within large organisations but in my (albeit limited) experience in private organisations freeloaders are managed out the business pretty quickly compared to it taking years or not at all in the NHS. I don't know what the answers are here as its so far gone I don't see it changing without complete reform of the service.
I have family and friends who have worked in the NHS and continue to do so. Whilst recognising the need for reform they don't paint as bleak a picture as some do on here. Some have left or are seeking other opertunities some of those overseas. Others staying on hoping for change within and in government investment in the future of the NHS.
With respect mate I'm not really up for getting involved with your disputes with specific posters as I don't have the history there - probably cos I avoid party politics I imagine lots of people have direct experience BTW. It's the biggest employer in the country! It was a shame that somebody accused me of making everything up and refusing to elaborate when asked why mind but hardly surprising.
I did 33 years and my wife 35 years in the NHS. Saw too many reorganisations, all politically motivated. From the 1983 Griffiths report/ recommendations onwards wherein the move to general management from multidisciplinary management was recommended. There was a slide towards the NHS being viewed as a business rather than a service. The wholly artifical purchaser/provider split in the 90s, making the NHS 'more business like' was the next major joke, sorry change. No more district health authorities but NHS Trusts, supposedly mirroring business organisations. In reality all this meant with each costly change came ever increasing beaurocratic layers. The exact opposite of what was required. Some of the major, (pun intended), mistakes sorry rip offs, included the selling off of huge estate assets, the introduction of private finance innitiatives, the lack of adequate independent audit. These are only the obvious ones, and although by and large the Blair/Brown years saw increases in funding they did not address the seeds of weeds planted by Thatcher administrations and watered by the wet Mr Major. Finally after campaigning for no top down reorganisation in NHS in 2010, Cameron appointed Lansley as secretary of state for health and social care. Another report, another kick in the teeth for committed clincians, from the man who did deals with fast food chains now so prominent in our hospitals.. Meanwhile in the real world of the health service, you know that interacton between clinician and patient, sorry service user as some deluded mamagement consultant told me in about 1994, becomes an ever harder process to access. Lets not mention social care....
Devils advocate, but is there actually any study that effectively proves the net effect of immigration on the NHS, accounting for both impact of increased population vs the direct effect of immigration on staffing? Genuinely think that without immigration the NHS wouldn’t be functioning anymore, we just don’t put in the funding and/or effort to train enough Brits to sustain the system. For example if you removed Filipinos from Southampton General I find it hard to believe that the nursing capacity wouldn’t just completely collapse, even if it only treated the British population of the city.
I strongly suspect that, as with most large-scale problems, it has many causes. Needs someone with some nous and some political weight to shake it by the neck but not break it in the process. Also badly needs someone to take social care seriously. Vin
[QUOTE Ian, apart from disagreeing that "all actions in war be considered criminal" I agree with the rest of your post.
Thanks for that Tigger a good insight into inept politically motivated interference with the NHS. Management consultants and their ilk are a bane of life and do little to justify their fees. I was with a company who were introducing 'lean engineering'. There were training workshops, some useful others not, during one I suggested 'lean management' which, after being taken as a bit of a joke, was taken up and successfully implemented. Each project was managed by the lead discipline which worked well no need for project engineers hampering the production of design deliverables. .
Not just the NHS but in many professions from agriculture to hospitality, social care and more immigration has had a positive impact and has done for many generations. There are exceptions Patel and Braverman amongst them.
