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Off Topic News & Current affairs (merged)

Discussion in 'Charlton' started by ForestHillBilly, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Rwanda are quite happy to trouser all the millions of pounds we're giving them for nothing, but unemployment there is 16%, and the opposition are opposed to the scheme, so I don't see them accepting too many refugees and keeping them. Africa will gradually become uninhabitable anyway due to climate change. Rhetoric won't solve the problem despite what Suella would have us believe. Nuclear fusion will solve a lot of energy problems- about 50 years too late unless a miracle happens, which appears to be our only hope. I've given up worrying about it, do my best to cut emissions cut plastic usage etc, but the human race may be very intelligent individually but is very stupid collectively, and here we are!
     
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  2. Ubedizzy2

    Ubedizzy2 Well-Known Member

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    But surely we have to try to stop the flow. So what might work if not a Rwanda type scheme ?

    This is what I find so annoying. It’s so easy to criticise but finding a better solution is not so easy. A government of any persuasion can’t just say “Oh well, it’s a bit too difficult to try to solve, so we just won’t bother trying”.

    Come on Lardi, you started me off again (!) - what’s the workable answer ?
     
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  3. lardiman

    lardiman The truth is out there
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    I'm not sure about an alternative solution, but I am sure I would want it presented with some human compassion.

    If Suella Braverman had said the Rwanda policy gives her no pleasure or pride but she feels it is a difficult thing yet one that has to be done, I could at least relate to her position, if still strongly disagreeing with it.
    But she is on record as saying it is her dream to see those planes flying to Rwanda. She relishes the prospect.
    That is cruel and heartless, and prejudiced.

    The Rwanda policy is designed to instill fear.
    Fear of being forcibly transported to a country which is famous for one thing only - the savage slaughter of a million men, women and children.
    It's a despicable policy in my view. And to "dream" of seeing it implemented is profoundly immoral.
     
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  4. Ubedizzy2

    Ubedizzy2 Well-Known Member

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    I’ll not get involved in what a particular politicians did or didn’t say and what any meaning is behind any words used. That’s just politics and this is not a political problem.

    Whichever party is in power and whichever politician is Home Secretary and Prime Minister, they will face the same problem. And yet none of them have come up with any ideas about how to solve this problem. Deporting illegal immigrants to a less attractive foreign country as soon as they arrive in the UK, could work. We won’t know until we try it. No one comes up with a better solution, but we are unable to implement this idea.

    All people do is complain about this attempt to deal with the problem, they don’t give an alternative.

    And in the meantime we continue to see people with no right to be here and no reason to be here apart from greed flooding into this country and turning it into the type of cesspit that they have come from in the first place. Murderers, rapists, terrorists, fraudsters, child abusers, benefit scrounges, drainers of NHS budgets, those with no moral values, those that hate the UK, those that don’t want to live in a civilised western culture or abide by our laws and rules. They are all free to wash up on our shores, with no fear of being sent back, because people in this country are too slow to realise what is happening and what will happen in the future.

    All those brave men and women who died during the two world wars have been betrayed. They fought for this country’s values and to preserve our way of life. They sacrificed everything to keep our country safe and just. And we are now just giving it all away without even trying to do anything about it or come up with ways to prevent it.

    I might just about be ok but my children and any grandchildren will suffer because we aren’t dealing with the most urgent problem that the country faces. They will live in a totally different country to the one we have all enjoyed. And it will be far worse.
     
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  5. Smudger603

    Smudger603 Well-Known Member

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    We
    Well said sir !
     
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  6. lardiman

    lardiman The truth is out there
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    The People of this Country elected a Conservative Government that said it would deal with the problem.
    Time after time Tory leaders have promised to cut net migration.

    Now we hear that it takes 18 months to process an asylum claim here.
    In Germany it takes 4 months.
    The fact it takes a year and a half is in itself a magnet to migrants. They know that even if they are refused asylum here they'll still have more than enough time to plant roots. You can start a family and have a child in 18 months, and haver another one well on the way.
    And now it turns out Government spending on Asylum has ballooned from £500m to £2billion in just four years.
    The Government has proven itself utterly incompetent on this grave issue.

    This is what I would do - if you want alternative ideas.
    1. An amnesty for everyone already here. They aren't leaving anyway under the current system, to Rwanda or anywhere else.
    The amnesty should clear the crippling asylum application backlog at a stroke.
    I know this won't be popular. But if the backlog is never cleared nothing will ever get better.
    2. Beef up the department responsible for processing applications. Double the staff.
    Make it fit for purpose. Beef up the judges & courts that have to be incvolved as well.
    3. Build holding accomodation (or detention centres if you want to call them that) in remote parts of the South East - near the Kent coast.
    Make sure they are adequately staffed from a security and maintenance point of view so they can be kept clean and orderly, with medical facilities and everything else to ensure they are humane places, not cattle pens.
    Or if really necessary build an arteficial offshore Island for this facility. The Chines build arteficial islands in the Pacific for military purposes. It can't be that difficult.
    4. Make it clear to every asylum seeker that their claim will be processed in 60 days maximum - in most cases sooner.
    No appeals, no European Court. Aim to reduce that maximum by 5 days per year with efficiency savings.
    Everybody to be kept on site. Nobody disappears into the community.
    5. If the application fails they go back to France.
    Anybody who comes back again after failing an application gets no second chance. They are deported again the following day.
    6. (maybe this should have come first) Make channels for legal migration & legitimate asylum applications fit for purpose.
    Give refugees proper opportunities to apply to come to the UK legally, not on boats.

    Yes, this is asking a lot.
    But our leaders should be willing to achieve a lot.
    They can't hide behind EU regs and rules anymore. They should step up and show some greatness.

    Within a year the number of people coming over by boat will begin to drop.
    And this would be fairer on genuine asylum seekers.
    Within 60 days they would be accepted and free to begin a new life working and contributing in the UK.
    And make sure all of the above is implemented with compassion and courtesy.
    No room for anybody who enjoys mistreating people.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 1, 2023
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  7. Ubedizzy2

    Ubedizzy2 Well-Known Member

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    Some good points Lardi, notably that the Tories have completely failed to deal with the issue, despite repeated promises that they would. But to be fair they have been blocked at every turn by judges, lawyers, civil servants, activists, ridiculous human rights laws, the French navy, the French Police, our own coast guard and RNLI etc etc etc. But it’s the governments job to overcome all that and they haven’t, so ultimately it’s down to them for not being tough enough. The problem is if they were tough enough then many of their own MP’s would vote against them and bring the government down. The British people are being betrayed by our politicians.

    Your measures aren’t tough enough and wouldn’t work. Any plan which involves sending failed illegal migrants back to France won’t happen. France won’t take them back, so what would happen then ? You need a country to agree to take them - like Rwanda for example. We need to stop them getting here in the first place. Stop meeting French navy vessels at the sea border after they’ve escorted boats from the French shores. Stop the boats and turn them round, if need be drag them back into French waters - it’s easy enough to track the route they’ve come on. No Amnesty for the 160,000 illegal migrants already here - if they entered illegally lock them up indefinitely until they ask to go back. No benefits and no right to work EVER for anyone who entered illegally. No NHS treatment, no charity hand outs. They’ll soon stop wanting to come here and if France wants to be less severe then great, they can stay there instead.
     
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  8. Ubedizzy2

    Ubedizzy2 Well-Known Member

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    #3488
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  9. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Woodrow Wilson was bedridden after a paralytic stroke for the last year of his presidency, and The USA was run by his wife, with no real problem. Biden's wife seems quite sharp, which is reassuring<whistle>.That clip has shades of Neil Kinnock on the beach with Glynis.
     
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  10. Ken Shabby

    Ken Shabby Well-Known Member

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    Theer is no incentive for the Tories to get the immigration system under some sort of control - it generates votes for the Tories, and even though after 13 years in power, things are obviously worse, their voters will still see them as the way to control immigration.
    A quick shout out to Brexit. When we were in the EU, the Dublin deal meant we could return dodgy immigrants relatively easily, but the oven ready deal we signed up to meant that particular avenue was closed. We could try to work with the French who offered a processing centre in calais as I understand, but Boris and Truss both thought they would do better by name calling.
    In a lot of cases the Tories have closed legal routes to migration, blocking obvious cases like torture and death threats, as well as people who want to reunite with their families, hence the ganges providing illegal way's in have flourished. Listening to the disgusting Braverman whining that migrants should go down legal route's when she's closed as many as possible is a chilling way to remind oneself that Germany in the 1930's was doing similar things (they chose Mozambique rather than Rwanda, but birds of a feather etc).
     
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  11. Ken Shabby

    Ken Shabby Well-Known Member

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    By the way, rwanda has signed a deal to take 200 migrants, and expects to be able to send some of it's own in the opposite direction. Not really much of a deal to be honest.
     
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  12. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I'm baffled as to why Starmer is trying to now becoming more and more of a Brexiteer. Even Nigel Farage says it has failed, and public opinion is gradually moving that way, so why, when he led Labour's Remain campaign is he so keen to defend B****t? I can understand why he doesn't want to fight the next election on such a divisive issue, but he is going a bit too far.
     
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  13. Ken Shabby

    Ken Shabby Well-Known Member

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    I', guessing he doesn't want to open that door even a fraction because of the avalanche that will come from the right wing press. However, despite the multple failings with Brexit and little or no positive achievements on offer, I'm not sure the UK is ready to go back, and trying to do so will maybe open some more wounds. Plus the EU will probably not be too receptive to the UK wanting to rejoin, and I imagine the ERG/Tufton street lobbiers plus rags like the Express, Telegraph and Mail will raise suspicions that a return to the EU by the UK may be as temporary as the duration of a Labour government. With all that, I doubt we'd get a great deal (and we'll never get one as good as the one the Brexiters chose to burn) and we may find for example that reentry means accepting the Euro, which won't be popular.
    I'm not that enthused by Starmer, but trying to make policies on public opion is a very dangerous way to go. getting back to a decent tarif free trading situation would lift some of the problems, and looking at freedom of movement would bring back some of the temporary workers the UK needs, and possibly give Rees Mogg and his ERG mates a collective stroke. Win win.
     
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  14. Ken Shabby

    Ken Shabby Well-Known Member

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  15. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Both my paternal grandparents were from a part of what was then Austria, is now Ukraine. My maternal grandfather was from the Italian Abbruzzi mountains, so one British grandparent.
     
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  16. Ubedizzy2

    Ubedizzy2 Well-Known Member

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    This man is just yet another rich, completely out of touch nobody who will be one of the very last to be affected by this, so doesn’t care.

    It’s a complete side show to be talking about the ancestry of people established in the UK. Yet again it’s an example of how you don’t have to lie to mislead.

    What is happening today in terms of numbers arriving, but most importantly intention, is totally different to what has happened in the past.

    THE VAST, VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE ARRIVING NOW ARE NOT ASYLUM SEEKERS.

    They are fit, healthy, mainly young men who have abandoned their country, their families and their way of life because they have seen that they can have a better life here that they haven’t worked for, at the expense of those of us that have. And our society is too weak to try to stop them.

    I’ll say again, why did tens of millions of young men and women die during the wars, fighting to preserve our way of life, if within 100 years we just give it all up without so much as a whimper.
     
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  17. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    The astute analyst Peter Kellner believes Starmer's pro-Brexit stance will cost Labour dearly at the election. Labour is reliant on the votes of younger voters, who see opportunities in Europe, and will turn to the LibDems and Greens.
     
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  18. lardiman

    lardiman The truth is out there
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    Keir Starmer needs the red wall seats back and the North East. Those were largely 'leave' areas.
    The collapse of the SNP also eases the pressure on him to sound more pro-EU north of the Border.
    I think Labour could regain maybe a dozen Scottish seats without any further effort.

    But I think he's sounding more hawkish on Brexit than he really believes.
    If Labour ends up with only a small majority after the 2024 GE or even has to rely on the Lib Dems to prop him up, then a return to the single market and probably free movement will be back on the agenda for sure.

    With those things will come a whole raft of EU conditions the UK will have to obey. And probably most of the payments we used to have to make.
    A de facto re-entry into the Union, just as a second-class member without any voting rights.
    If anybody thought the divisions over this were getting bitter and personal between 2016 and 2019, they haven't seen anything yet.
    Boris will be back as leader of the Opposition, reinvigorated.
    I should think Farage will also pop up again.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 4, 2023
  19. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    The perceived wisdom was that it needs B****teers to make it work. Now that they have failed to do that Sir Keir has to convince us that the Remoaners can make it work. Seems quite a tall order. The initial flush of victory is wearing off, and sooner or later a leading B****teer will break ranks and say that maybe it wasn't such a good idea, and that could be a game-changer.
     
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  20. The Penguin

    The Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I have always found Caroline Lucas very articulate and reasoned in her contributions in Parliament, and she will be a loss. But is there any point in making reasoned arguments in The House? This week Yvette Cooper Asked the speaker a question which was basically about the lovely Suella giving figures on immigration which were way out of line with the government's own stats. The deputy Speaker brushed it aside, saying the minister was entitled to interpret the figures any way she liked; in other words "alternative facts" are now equally valid to factual ones. The PM and other ministers rarely answer a question unless it is a friendly one from their own side, so what is the point in having a debating chamber? Would it not be quicker to have a shouting match (fuelled by large quantities of subsidised booze) , and whichever side registers higher on the richter scale wins the vote.
     
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