Off Topic Politics Thread

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Can you delete that message as I checked to make sure I wasn't making a mistake. I have sent another/or amended message.

 

Yeah, that would be nice. As a Trade Unionist involved in a long running and as yet unresolved industrial dispute, I am most certainly not holding my breath though ​

 

The press during the late 70s managed to corrupt the mindset of the British public that Trade Unions were bad and running the country. |Never anything about poor management or product being a contributary cause.

 

Absolutely correct Ides. The vast majority of improvements in working conditions came from collective bargaining.

 

Wow

A Tory politician is being investigated by party chiefs after allegedly saying: "All white men should have a black man as a slave".

County councillor Andrew Edwards is also accused of saying black people were of "lower class" than whites and has refused to deny the claims.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-politician-claims-all-white-29689753

 

The demonisation of the trade union movement goes way back.

 

Not everyone was in a Union even back then so there was a natural divide amongst the country. The middle classes already regarded Unions and it's members as uneducated riff-raff driven by commie sympathisers.
On top of that, I don't think the attitude of ordinary Joe public is all that supportive in disputes that don't involve themselves anyway, particularly if it includes strike action. I've worked with people that have enjoyed a very good standard of working conditions, all negotiated by the Trade Unions but still didn't have a good word to say about them.

 

No doubt he Will say he was drunk and Will apologise profusely, a la Fatso Johnson

 

Who are the "middle" class that regard trade unión members as riff-raff?.Teachers? They have unions. Doctors and nurses? Don't they have unions? Journalists?.BBC staff?.I.think.they have unions as well! Not supportive? I thought the NUR had won the argument against the Government! As for the people you are quite negative towards unions, despite having better working conditions as a result of unión membership, they should be asking themselves serious questions. Of course, trade unions are not perfect but they have managed over the years generally through consultation to improve the working conditions for their members.

 

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The “middle class”, imo, is a fabrication designed to split the working class, for political purposes.
Most of the people I know, who quantify themselves as middle class, WORK for a living, which means they are working class.
Take their jobs away and most of them would be in financial difficulties within a few months, if not sooner.
I have seen over the years lists of occupations that are considered “middle class” but, imo, it’s all bullshit and snobbery.

 

'Keep you doped with religion and sex and tv
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still f**king peasants as far as I can see...'
John Lennon 1970..

 

What I remember about her and what led me to admire her was the very brave stance she took in speaking out about the misogyny in some sectors of the Muslim world . That took real guts imho.

 

Yes you're right all those you mention do have Unions but I don't think they ever saw themselves as comrades of the large industrial Unions that found themselves in regular conflict during the 1970's and 80's. You're right to question what I posted as it was too general. It was Dockers, Miners, Steel workers and Car workers etc who I was thinking of as targets for the media who shared their views with business people, management and so on who were comfortably off but resented workers at the lower end of the pay scale improving their lot.

I don't think the NUR won the argument amongst the general public at all. Certainly not with journalists who seemed to resent Mick Lynch tying them in knots and I don't think their grievances were well explained or reported in a balanced way either. Train drivers pay seemed to be mentioned more than anything else when the dispute was mostly about terms and conditions. This type of reporting filters it's way into public opinion and that coupled with people who dislike Unions anyway made the NUR's case difficult to get across IMO.

As for your comment about Union members being negative about the Union, all I can say is some people are never satisfied. And in my experience, it sometimes has to be pointed out how they have benefitted.

 

I joined the Royal Navy as an 18 year old and was politically very naive. The party line at that time was to support the government of the day and for a large part of my career (71-86) it was the Tories. We had no political education that I can recall, rather a reinforcement of the status quo by many officers and others. Then I went to university in 87 and my eyes were opened. Today I cannot wait to get the Tories out, although I’m less than inspired or encouraged by the current iteration of the Labour Party.

 

The gift that keeps on giving.

 

This has historically been the difficulty of unionization: when levels of unionization are high, the benefits of being a free rider are even greater. This then leads members of the union to resent it, which leads to more free riders and lower rates of unionization, at which point the benefits cease to accrue for anyone.

Consequently, the benefits are really only seen in the absence of unionization, and even then only over the course of many years of declining participation.

 

I think another cause for union membership dropping was when the way in which subs were collected was changed.
They used to be deducted from wages, in many cases, which allowed union reps to present the signed documents to the wage departments.
Now, unless it is in the employee contract, companies no longer need to do this and many people can’t be arsed to set up DD payments.

 

9 million people are missing from the electoral roll.
34% of 18 & 19 year olds are not on it.
25% of black and 24% of Asian voters are also missing.
94% of over 65s are on the list.
What would solve the problem, for the 18 & 19 year olds would be a return to allowing the “head of the household” to register everyone living at the same address, instead of this insistence that everyone should register independently.