Ralph sacked as Saints manager

Oh absolutely. In fact I am sure we have had this exact discussion before!

 

Ralph could secure his job and become a Saints legend next season if can address the points dropped. Once again we are the worst offenders in the league.

For all the cries of sack the manager the electric starts indicate that we are doing things right with the setup and the preparation but the collapses are baffling and almost certainly mental to a significant degree. the 29 points dropped would have us up competing for Europe comfortably. The belief and doubt is inherent in the squad and I have my own thoughts on where the main issues are but every player on the pitch is responsible and one of the reasons I am in favour of a clearout. We need mental toughness and drive brought in.

Even half of those dropped points would get us into Europe.

 

I still lose sleep over the equalizer Brighton got at St. Mary’s last December, in the 90+10th minute or whatever it was. JWP had a perfect opportunity to just boot the f*cking ball as far as he could up the pitch, but he dallied, got tackled, and they scored from the resulting free-kick.

Sometimes when you’re a bottom-6 team, you need to play like a bottom-6 team.

 

Its that sort of fragility that needs to be sorted. We can go 2-0 up and when it gets to 2-1 you can feel the collapse coming. Zero belief. We are in need of players who can just ****ing dominate and psych's who can stop players giving into their fears.

Contrast that with playing City when we hounded and harrassed and hustled them from go to whoah. Nothing to lose and no pressure means no fear. As soon as we start looking at a top10 finish they **** the bed. Same as the awful home run. The pressure to perform at home and we choked week after week. That same team had the best away record in the league pretty much.

 

I think fatigue comes into it as well. Away to Norwich was the best example. First half we won every loose ball, made every tackle, first-time passes, etc. Second half complete contrast. Too late to any loose ball, missing all the tackles, needing an extra touch before passing. You'd like to assume that with the new five subs law, Ralph should really be able to make his pressing tactics last the full 90 rather than just 45-60.

 

Confidence definitely plays a big role in it. Another contributing factor, I suspect, is that we often don't do enough with the ball when we take it back. Especially when you're playing Ralph's sort of press, which is highly reliant on the forwards putting immediate pressure on the opponent's defenders, their reward for all that effort is that they ought to be gift-wrapped a lot of good scoring chances when we take possession high up the pitch and release the attackers against an unstructured defense.

You saw that a lot with Leicester in their title season: Vardy would be running around annoying CBs, that pressure would lead to a bad ball and Kante or Drinkwater intercepting high up the pitch, and five seconds later Vardy would be in on goal. If instead you put in that effort, force the change in possession, make the forward run, and then watch the midfield cycle the ball back to the CBs, I'd imagine that starts to erode your zeal for all that running (it also means that, per the above, that we don't turn effort into goals before we tire). And when you only have two midfielders, any hesitation or laxity among the forwards exposes us to get torn to shreds.

 

The fact that we know basically ****all about the details is not going to stop us all jumping to conclusions.
It’s a disgrace/about bloody time/goes with the territory etc*

*delete as appropriate

 

It’s amazing how many people don’t trust a word the evil press says, unless it’s something that they agree with!

 

Os in

Only kidding, Os

 

People always pick and choose what they want to believe on here. Really don't see why this is any different?

Speculating never seems to be deemed a problem if it's something positive or a popular opinion. Funny that.

This forum would be pretty dull if we only discussed facts.

 

Not even then. The question I always ask is, what (narrative) are they selling, and why?

Obviously some sources are more trustworthy than others. Not sure where SaintsExtra fits on a scale of 0-10, where 0 is Piers Morgan (or in purely football terms, The Echo)

 

Oh I know mate, I'm being deliberately naughty.

 

Just how much does a winning mentality come through leadership off of the pitch and how much on it? I believe that it is both and we need changes with them and after all a team plays in the image of the manager.
Ralph could do with some expert advice especially how to set up defensively and how to protect a lead but also maybe fitness and breaking down deep lying defences when behind.
I would also like to see a few players signed that can step right into the first team and not just be one for the future that the club can profit from and have that desire to lead and win matches and can organise and direct a backline during the match.

 

So for me, both Pellegrino and Hughes were clearly from the very start not long-term managers - can't compare the two, but Pellegrino was as out of his depth as I've seen any manager in the PL. It was clear we needed to move on from him very quickly. There was no pattern of growth or improvement over those games, nor any sign that he had an idea where he wanted to take us. With Hughes - again, my opinion - it was obvious from the start that he was not a long-term choice for a team like us who had so recently been quite progressive and forward-thinking. Hughes was already a relic of a bygone footballing era, a footballing conservative, so the match didn't work for me. He did great to keep us up but that was as far as it should have gone. I don't think I'd have wavered from that view even if results were going our way in that second season, as in my head over the last decade we are a progressive, modern team, fielding exciting young players, with a manager who can keep up with new ideas. As happy as I was when Hughes kept us up, I was gutted when they gave him the contract, as it guaranteed a season of treading water. Again, that's just my view - maybe influenced and spoilt by the appointment of Pochettino and Koeman.

I don't know how much we can tell on win % when we are not comparing similar figures. Ralph has managed five times as many matches as either Pellegrino or Hughes, which already tells us something - ie. he's been good enough to stick around. Perhaps either of those could have gone on to best Ralph over the 150 game mark, but they couldn't even manage us past a fifth of that many games.

I like the feeling of a bond between the manager and the club. Like you get with Klopp and Guardiola, for example. So I just like that same energy we get from Ralph - it feels like he feels it when we lose or win. So I feel bought in to his vision and trust his direction for the club because he lives that each time we play a game (win, lose, or draw). You don't get that same feeling with many managers - clearly you do with the very top teams, as it is easy to want to build yourself into a team of serial winners; but rarely do you get the same feeling with a club like ours. Even Koeman was off golfing when it counted - managers are so often short-term thinkers (like politicians), as they know they won't last long in post - it feels to me like Ralph is going all in here, aligned with us (and definitely with what I want to see from the club).

As other have said, it barely needs answering, but that alone makes him a manager worth sticking with on a long-term project. I don't like calling for any manager's head, but when it is clear early on someone isn't right, seems obvious to change things. Ralph has done a serious amount right - he has got us results when it counts, breathtaking performances when it all clicks, got us playing in a fairly unique style of our own - and has had very little financial backing to get the players he wants. Managers of top clubs get paid a lot to impress character on to a team - Chelsea or Man U are a classic example. Managers like Ancelotti get sacked from after winning the league because they haven't impressed a personality on Chelsea or a unique style that is recognisable as Chelsea. Man U have struggled with the same since Alex Ferguson - they have had some decent seasons, but no discernible Man U style to speak of these days. Southampton definitely have that pinned down - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. With a bit more backing and the manager's choice of players in key roles, this isn't too far from clicking imo. He has the hard part sorted. He just needs to work out some variation.

We are on a journey with our managers, and so you take the short-term lows in support of how you think they can perform over a period of time. I just think he is the right manager to continue that journey.

 

Yes, but to be clear I was never suggesting that anyone is saying Ralph is better or worse than MP2 or MH. The question was in terms of how it seems very clear to me the difference between Ralph and those two. Ralph is connected to the club, has bothered to understand our modern DNA (for want of a better term), has a vision for the club, and above all else, knows how he wants to play the game. He knows a lot about football, is connected to most influential characters within this style of play, and is continually backed by the club. MP2 and MH, in short, weren't that. One was out of his depth in this league, the other was past his sell-by date as a viable manager to take a club forward. It is why we were the last PL club to hire him.

So when wanting Ralph out and questioning why others want him to remain as manager, I was questioning whether the doubters are just seeing another crap manager they want out like the last guy and we churn onwards; or can they actually see that this is someone with some discernible skill in managing a Premier League side (on absolute fumes, no less), and has quite a lot of admirers in European football, and who will (unlike the other two) almost certainly move on to bigger clubs than us, and we are quite lucky to have him.

 

I agree with most of what you say, maybe with the exception of growth. We have of course improved since Pelegrino, things were diabolical. But we’ve stood still in the past season, arguably we’ve gone backwards.

Agree about Hughes, was very happy he kept us up but my feeling was he wasn’t right for us (as you say we were spoiled with Pochettino and Koeman). Pelegrino was an odd appointment, it felt like he was out of his depth. He kept doing the same thing again and again… his win % was also similar.

He probably does have a better bond with the club, although we don’t really know that. We see what we see as fans in the media.

What I’m really asking is what is the hard, objective evidence he is better? It’s probably a bit unfair and unless someone works closely with the team they wouldn’t be able to. Talking about the ‘bond’ is subjective and doesn’t really tell us anything.

 

He’s kept us up. Under Pellegrino and Hughes we would already be down. That’s something.

Ive said it before, but he has definitely improved a lot of players in the time he’s been here. Those other coaches made every player worse.

Ralph has got the best out of Oriol, JWP, Stephens, Forster, Redmond to an extent, improved Ely and Armstrong

 

Yes, I did put the comparison together, but it was more a rhetorical question around many of us are calling for this person to move on, but do we think we're just getting rid of another crap, failed manager who is bereft of ideas, and we can easily move on and maintain our league status; or do we need to look closer and consider more carefully what we'd be losing?

Absolutely not saying its black and white and everyone who wants Ralph out must think he is a poor manager. We just need to take in the wider picture - where do we deserve to finish in the league with the level of investment and player exits we've sustained over the previous five years? Could anyone manage this group to this level, or is he punching above his weight when reviewing the season as whole (for a second ignore these bad runs)? For me it's all about hope - and I have enough confidence in what Ralph can do that I feel we can have a good season and push for a top half finish. That was what was lacking for me with MP2 and MH.

 

All of what you say in the first paragraph may be true, but is not measurable and subject to opinion. Particularly from the perspective of a fan.

Regarding the second paragraph I will offer a counter argument; Are the diehard Rinners seeing something that isn’t really there? Are they blindsided by his charm, presence, exotic name?

Im not trying to be antagonistic and what you say looks correct, however I’m trying to be balanced looking in from the outside.

 

Again you may well be right, but we will never know? You can’t say with certainty we will have been relegated. And you can’t say Ralph is better because he has been given more time. If premier league survival is the aim then I doff my hat to Ralph, he has done an excellent job. I was, however, under the impression that our aims were a little higher.

You could also say Tino, Armstrong, Salisu and Broja did not improve or deteriorated. Romeu has played poorly for half a season and Redmond hasn’t really featured this season. You could also say he failed to make Adam Armstrong to work, although that’s probably unfair.