Off Topic Ukraine

Still an unspeakable situation for the people of Ukraine..............

 

Irish media reporting this morning that the Russian embassy in Dublin has asked the Irish govt to intervene because companies have stopped delivering fuel to the embassy and they are on the verge of running out. Also reports that Bank of Ireland has closed the embassy’s bank account.

These Irish folk seem to be a bit further down the road than the Brits in making their feelings known.

 

This is truly awful.

 

Les we forget eh......

It is the worst things imaginable that Putin has unleashed on Ukraine........ absoultely despicable

 

If this is true it could be the best news of the year so far.

www.cityam.com/kremlin-on-high-alert-as-coup-rumours-grow-in-moscow-disgruntled-generals-join-fsb-looking-to-oust-putin-and-end-ukraine-war/

 

The result we all would want..... Putin is a despot

 

Has to be an inside job to prevent WW111

 

The problem with this, although I would love to see it happen, is that we don't know what maniacs will replace him - better the devil you know etc.
Maybe if Putin was eradicated the Russian forces would just down arms and walk away.

 

The problem is that even if Putin were eradicated the problems don't suddenly disappear along with him. The Russians might withdraw but the long term problems remain. The Pope has finally made a speech on this in which he lays the blame partly on Russia and partly on NATO - if you keep barking at somebodies doorstep, as NATO has done with it's eastward expansions, bringing rockets closer and closer to Moscow, then eventually they will react. Even without Putin this problem remains.

 

What we have seen happen is little to do with NATO, although if it were Putin has shot himself in the foot with new countries asking to join for their own protection against him. In my opinion Putin has not got over the breakup of the old Soviet Union, and is trying to get it back piece by piece, and the expansion of NATO is a great excuse for his war mongering. Maybe some of the young men from the 19th century parts of eastern Russia will return and speak about why power has been concentrated in Moscow, while they have been ignored until cannon fodder was required.

 

Sorry Frenchie but if you presume it has nothing to do with the activities of NATO then you are falling into the trap of believing that NATO is only a defensive organization - which it isn't, and I'm sure that Afghanistan, Libya, Yugoslavia and Iraq would second that. NATO has the function of legitimizing wars which the Americans want to fight. The USA has been arming Ukraine consistently for the last 20 years (only Obama paused this for a while), and the CIA has had a presence there for most of that time training sections of the Ukraine military which were involved in the Dombass, including the Azov regiment which is more or less a Nazi paramilitary unit. I'm afraid that there are no black or white pictures here - of course Putin is false in claiming that he wants to denazify Ukraine, but, at the same time, the West is sweeping the 'Nazi' problem in the Ukraine under the carpet. Of course there are Nazis in every European country - but it's only in the Ukraine where they drive around in tanks and have an over proportional influence both in the military and in government building. Unfortunately we are in the middle of a propaganda war - Putin dominates the propaganda in Russia and Zelensky dominates it everywhere else with his insinated video broadcasts - and we lap it up. Don't get me wrong here - Putin is the main villain here, but NATO is not without fault and the Ukraine is not the hero of the piece. Apparently we all want the Russians to be pushed back onto their own territory - but then what ? The problem of the partition of the Ukraine remains - can Russians and Ukrainians live together in the ukraine after this when they have failed to do so for the last 8 years ? In the end we will see a deeply divided, but highly weaponized, country with a power vacuum. We will also see a spike in the availability of weapons on the black market. Apparently the Americans have lost all ability to monitor where their weapon supplies to Ukraine have actually ended up - and in the meantime, Ukraine has become the number one source of black market weapons Worldwide.

 

Well I am glad that you say that Putin is the main villain, because whatever the perceived threat in his mind, NATO has not invaded Russia. There have been plenty of calls to do so from the extreme fringes of society, but no physical incursion has taken place. What we have seen over the past few weeks has been barbarism in its most extreme form carried out by Putin's forces. To ignore all the conventions of avoiding as much harm as possible to the civilians shows that he is just plain evil. Ukraine has become far more like western Europe than eastern Russia is today, and it is natural that the people will see that being aligned with the EU is a far better place to be than dominated and ruled by a puppet government imposed by Moscow. Sure there are people who will feel left behind as the country moves forward, and they will continue to use the language they grew up with, but we have seen that many of the leaders will flip quite happily between Russian and Ukrainian, a sign that people can live together with respect. We are seeing in the UK and places such as France and Spain where the smaller countries or regions do not wish to be governed by larger entities, but create their own way of life. It can be suppressed for a long time, but at what cost? Ukraine has chosen the way in which it wishes to live, and now is paying the most horrific price at the hands of a despot.

 

Poxy war.

 

I'd like to know what your sources are for most of this. It's probably over 90% Russian propaganda.

 

Just a reminder Frenchie - about 30% of the population is ethnically Russian and speaks Russian as their first language. The new language laws of ukraine stipulate that only Ukrainian is to be used in all aspects of public life - there are exceptions to this law regarding print media outlets in that some EU languages, such as English, French and German, are allowed - but Russian isn't, neither is Hungarian or the Roma language (these being the largest ethnic languages after Ukrainian). This is one contributory reason why Orban is reluctant to supply arms to Ukraine - ie. he has problems with the treatment of the Hungarian minority there. You say that Ukraine has chosen how it wants to live - I do not think its Russian population has had much of a say in this. We have not seen much 'living together with respect' in the Dombass over the last 8 years Frenchie - Zelensky wanted to create a peacefull solution to the East Ukraine a couple of years ago but the far right opposed his plans. You speak of the creation of 'puppet' governments as if their creation was something new - as if the Americans haven't created 'puppet' governments Worldwide - yet, mysteriously, not been called despots in the process. I truly regret that the civil population of Ukraine is suffering the way it is - but in truth the numbers of civilian casualties are less than those sustained in Iraq, Afghanistan and during the bombing of Serbia (but of course that was done by the 'good guys' ).

 

Russian propaganda isn't reaching the west any more Toby ! You can read up on Wiki (that well known source of Russian propaganda) anything you like about the Azov Batallion or about Svoboda or the over proportional influence of neo Nazi groups in ukraine. You can also read from American government sources about how long they have been present in Ukraine, about their training and arming of the country over a long period - and also about the fear of a spike in black market weaponry after this war is over - because the Americans are losing track of where their weapons are going. You can also read an abundance of such material in such media outlets as those most well known pro Putin propagandists the New York times and the Washington Post !!! Just stick to the Zelensky videos !

 

I'm more clued up on this conflict than most people, so please don't belittle me. As far as I remember you claimed that Russia were never going to invade when they were amassing troops on the borders pre-war.

First of all, NATO expansionism. This whole 'there will be missiles closer to Moscow' claim is ridiculous, all superpowers have missiles that can hit anywhere on earth in a few minutes, there's no need for physical missile launching sites to be in close proximity to their targets.

Azov did have unsavoury characters in their midst for a while, this was sorted pre-war. There are definitely neo-nazis in Ukraine but it's far less of a problem than pro-Russian propaganda makes it to be, Ukraine is not swarming with Nazis. Russia probably has more per capita tbh, and I didn't notice you mentioning the Wagner group either.

Donbass conflict was fueled by Russian money and weapons. Ukraine had every right to defend its territory. Russia unfairly annexed Crimea and wanted their land bridge, so stirred up the area. How do you think they shot down that plane? Doubt regular citizens have surface to air missiles lying around in their sheds.

The US, UK, Canada, etc have been training Ukrainian troops at the request of their President since 2014, when Russia broke the treaty they signed to protect Ukraine and annexed Crimea. Ukraine had no army to speak of back then, they've had to militarise fast to stop the Russian rapists, murderers and torturers taking over their country.

Russia are not the victims here, they are the aggressors. I could rant about this for ages but i'm on holiday and would rather have another beer instead.

 

Just a few contradictions here Toby.
1. The distance of missiles away from their targets is an important issue because defensive missile shields have less preparatory time the shorter the distance.
2. The Ukraine has not honoured the Minsk agreement.
3. The Crimea voted to separate from the Ukraine immediately after a coup in Ukraine which was backed by the USA and was critically helped by Svoboda ie. the far right) - had the Russians not gone into the Crimea then the Ukrainians would have gone in there against the wishes of the local population - thus the Russian pre emptive action prevented a bloodbath. The proof of this lies in the fact that the Russian takeover there was nearly bloodless.
4. The USA has been arming the Ukraine since 2000 (not 2014 as you stated) - and in fact the country has the third biggest army in Europe, after Russia and France.
There are other contradictions I could make but this is enough for now - enjoy your beer.

 

FWIW, I think there are truths in what both of you say. It’s a complicated situation with more than one bad guy.

The one thing I’ll add to the mix though, is the biased media we have to consume, which constantly self-praises and then belittles others’ output. I was listening to BBCR5 the other morning on the way to work, and it stated in passing as fact that our media was not state-controlled unlike Russia - Q. Who closed down RTV?