Did I say these states left the Soviet Union because the Yanks convinced them to do so? I said the Russians were OK with these states having independence, but (poorly articulated) that such independence should come with alignment with Russia, but THEN the Americans started to dabble. I suspect everybody started to dabble, quite frankly. I think it wholly reasonable to examine and ask questions about what has been going on and how we’ve got to this point. Fact is, none of us on here know an iota of what really has gone on. We can only read & listen to stuff and form an opinion, and we can change our opinions as we read and listen to more stuff. Or we can choose not to. We have that luxury.
I’ve recently been reading an awful lot of history, my appetite whetted by Hitchens’ book on WW2, and it’s depressing to see how similar circumstances have led to hostilities again and again throughout time. Mark Twain was right when he suggested anybody running for public office ought to be disqualified for that reason alone.
Absolutly this……We wanted to pick our dictators to get into bed with and we in the west must take some blame at least for where we are now. Geo-politics is far more complex than good against evil.
But in your world Col…..it just seems us in the West can only do good. We have a lot to be very proud of…however it would be naive in the extreme, to not at least acknowledge the often appalling history of abuse that we have carried out. Both overtly and covertly.
It would be very naive to say that certain elements in the West did not have at least some kind of involvement in the 2014……but I can probably think of at least a couple on here who might deny it And of course I would totally acknowledge the fact that Russia and Putin certainly had influence on Ukrainian affairs before that time……it would again be naive not to.
"The Yanks started to dabble." What does that mean? The ex Soviet states had seen civilians in the West leading free lives in comparative affluence. Free trade, EU subsidies. That's a lot of what drew them. Agree, totally reasonable to look back. The history around Gorbachev, Thatcher and Reagan is well documented. Plenty to form a view on imo.
As I understand it, the Americans have sought to influence the leadership of certain of these states, as I’m sure have the Russians and others, much like there have been suggestions of ‘dabbling’ in UK elections (by the Russians) and in South American (by the US and probably others). Hey, I’m only suggesting this has taken place (from the scant stuff I’ve read) and that Russian perception that it has taken place has not helped matters. Who wouldn’t want the freedoms of the West (although these are diminishing) over what life was like in the USSR. (The actions of other interests can go a little way in explaining how baddies rise to prominence, but should never provide the excuse.)
Putins fingers are all over the rigged elections in Ukraine in 2004 which led to the Orange Revolution, including the poisoning of Viktor Yushchenko, the opposition candidate But the Western partners, especially the US, were certainly pulling strings too. And their over-staying their welcome in Georgia was a slap in the face for Putin too
I was watching another ‘untold’ story of the Falklands War the other day and how we courted Pinochet to house a listening station and radar detection capabilities on a Pacific (yes, Pacific) island territory of Chile to give early warning of Argentinian aircraft heading to the Falklands. Another example of One Evil Regime: Good, Another Evil Regime: Bad. Of course, Thatcher’s position on Pinochet is well documented and maybe this partly explains why it was so.
Again couldn’t agree more. I find it appalling that some like to portray us in the West as the good guys, knights in shining army who will travel the world to stamp out evil wherever we find it….while absolutely failing to acknowledge the fact that we have allowed, and at times encouraged , other obscene evils and atrocities, all because it suits our agenda at the time……Thatcher/Pinochet is a prime example…..as well as many more in Latin America. On a human level…..it’s just plain wrong
I can understand that unpalatable policies and alliances may sometimes be in our interests though, Stainsey. I only wish we’d be more honest about it, instead of (in the case of some of our leaders of the past) pretending to be piously ethical. I guess if we declined to trade and have good relations with every country that did things we didn’t approve of, we’d only be trading with the Isle of Wight now.
None of which I've actually said of course. In fact I've very often acknowledged the West's wrong doings and also this Country's too.
I've not seen anyone suggest the West is anything like perfect, Stainsey. But one party doesn't have to be perfect in order for someone to come down its side - or the opposite. In 1919, the reparations in The Treaty of Versailles treated Germany very harshly - but it didn't stop the civilised world rightly condemning the Nazis later.
