1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Grand Prix thread ABU DHABI GRAND PRIX 2021

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by ched999uk, Dec 7, 2021.

?

Who will win - simple :-) ?

Poll closed Dec 10, 2021.
  1. Lewis Hamilton

    71.4%
  2. Max Verstappen

    7.1%
  3. Valtteri Bottas

    7.1%
  4. Sergio Perez

    7.1%
  5. Lando Norris

    7.1%
  6. Esteban Ocon

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Pierre Gasly

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Fernando Alonso

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Kimi Raikkonen

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Any Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Quite Possibly Raving

    Quite Possibly Raving Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    4,102
    Likes Received:
    5,256
    The problem is he just can't get a good jump and traction out of that final corner on 40 lap old hards vs someone on fresh softs. No amount of engine advantage is going to make up for that amount of grip through the corners. Max could brake much later and get on the accelerator much much earlier.
     
    #621
    Justjazz and ched999uk like this.
  2. Quite Possibly Raving

    Quite Possibly Raving Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    4,102
    Likes Received:
    5,256
    I'd actually be fine with them declaring the result from Abu Dhabi as null and void, with Max keeping the title. It would forever justify the argument that the decision was farcical and that Hamilton was denied a title. For that reason, I doubt the FIA will agree to this unless CAS can somehow compel them to do this.
     
    #622
  3. Mark Blow

    Mark Blow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    1,657
    why won’t Mercedes win at CAS? Masi and the FIA will have to explain how they didn’t follow the safety car regulations as they are written down when it comes to lapped cars lapping themselves and how they applied it to only certain cars. As well as safety car restarts.They will have to a show a precedent where this has happened before.

    Masi and the FIA don’t have a leg to stand on. It’s one thing not having the FIA throwing Masi under the steamroller for what he did, because that would be embarrassing for them and show what a mockery Masi did but CAS will be impartial.
     
    #623
  4. Mark Blow

    Mark Blow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    1,657
    even more of a sham than what already happened?
     
    #624
    ched999uk likes this.
  5. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,980
    Likes Received:
    2,145
    Just reading media articles and was reminded that there is an FIA presidential election on Friday!!!! So technically they award the Championship trophies out on Thursday and on Friday the election happens!! I bet Todt will be happy to be out of this mess!
     
    #625
    moreinjuredthanowen likes this.
  6. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,980
    Likes Received:
    2,145
    Just a thought about the original Merc appeal. Merc appealed the Race Directors application of the rules or lack of so why were Red Bull allowed to give statements and be party to the appeal? Surely it was just between Merc and FIA/Stewards/Masi? OK so Red Bull would want to be there but it was a Merc protest against FIA.
     
    #626
  7. moreinjuredthanowen

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    115,704
    Likes Received:
    27,602

    The ruling test states:

    On December 12 the parties were summoned at 2015 hrs (Documents 54 and 55) and
    heard. The following persons were present during the hearing:
    On behalf of Mercedes:
    ‐ Ron Meadows
    ‐ Andrew Shovlin
    Paul Harris (Team Legal Counsel)
    On behalf of Red Bull:
    ‐ Jonathan Wheatley
    ‐ Christian Horner
    ‐ Adrian Newey

    Red Bull, as an “interested party” was permitted to attend.
    The hearing adjourned at 2050 to allow Red Bull to consider its response in further
    detail and reconvened at 2130hrs.
    The Race Director was present for the reconvened hearing.


    quite interesting that Mercedes has a legal counsel just present by chance eh?



    the evidence given by masi

    "The Race Director stated that the purpose of Article 48.12 was to remove those lapped cars that
    would “interfere” in the racing between the leaders and that in his view Article 48.13 was the one
    that applied in this case.

    The Race Director also stated that it had long been agreed by all the Teams that where possible
    it was highly desirable for the race to end in a “green” condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car).



    the stewards concluded:

    That Article 15.3 allows the Race Director to control the use of the safety car, which in our
    determination includes its deployment and withdrawal.

    That although Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully, in relation to the safety car returning
    to the pits at the end of the following lap, Article 48.13 overrides that and once the message
    “Safety Car in this lap” has been displayed, it is mandatory to withdraw the safety car at the end
    of that lap.



    ---------------------------------

    IMO the only argument mercedes have after that is whether the safety car in this lap message was indeed displayed in time.

    If it was then masi has argued and the stewards have backed him that he had the right to determine what cars were to be got "out of the way" to allow "racing"

    in this case that meant removing all blockers that verstappen failed to pass through plain not being fast enough with hard tyres to pass and also those cars he would have ended up behind due to tyre change.

    the concept of fairness doesn't seem to come into it. there was not time to go racing but they forced it as all teams had a happy little agreement to end under green light apparently so Massi is contending that all he did was ensure a green light would occur (and it seems to be this is really then down to the contention that cars were let go or not.) and all impediments were removed.

    Daniel Ricciardo, Lance Stroll, Mick Schumacher did not pass. they were behind at least the ferraris?

    I don't have footage here of where they were but it IMO would be interest to see if any of these were between cars racing for position. ( sainze, tsunoda, gasly, etc etc)



    It seems to me that the stewards have decided that the race director can do what he wants as long as the safety car in signal was given. The safety car was literally metres from the pit entry when brundle shouted. I don't know if his lights were off before that either!
     
    #627
    ched999uk likes this.
  8. duggie2000

    duggie2000 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    10,616
    Likes Received:
    13,871
    The Michelin Man dummy after all they provide the tyres
     
    #628
  9. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,980
    Likes Received:
    2,145
    I agree that Red Bull where an interested party but the 'dispute' was between FIA and Merc. Red Bull shouldn't have any say in the process.
    As for Merc bringing a lawyer, they were just covering all bases as any team who thought a decision might not go their way would!

    It does seem to suggest that Masi was allowed to make rules up as he went along and if that's what the teams signed up to I would be very surprised.
     
    #629
  10. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    13,495
    Likes Received:
    2,568
    Wonder if there's any chance of Mercedes walking? Must be hard to make a business case for sport where they make up rules 99.99% of the way into a season to stop you winning.

    Their contact probably ties them into the sport too much to leave, but then I guess you only have to follow the rules you want to so
     
    #630
    ched999uk likes this.

  11. Quagmireuk

    Quagmireuk Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2014
    Messages:
    201
    Likes Received:
    99
    The marketing positives far outweigh the fact that it's bent as **** unfortunately.

    I hope they don't withdraw their appealing but I fear they will as it'll be a PR nightmare.

    Mercs there primarily for marketing reasons and let's be fair.. As a company they won the WCC which is held in higher regard by the actual teams if not the fans.
     
    #631
    ched999uk likes this.
  12. moreinjuredthanowen

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    115,704
    Likes Received:
    27,602
    The fact is they had one at the race at all :) clearly their tactics were aligned here expecting a crash and ready to go. I find it interesting how far they were prepared to go before anything even kicked off.

    The ruling is interesting as the wording states "The claims of Mercedes" and then "Red Bull’s arguments in defence" and then "Race Director’s Evidence"

    Interesting red bull contended that "That even if all cars that had been lapped (8 in total, of which 5 were allowed to overtake the safety car) it would not have changed the outcome of the race."

    I have to wonder as reading it it is a rather odd process where Mercedes never mention red bull at all in their claim (for this particular appeal) AND red bulls defense reads as if it were coached by the FIA/director in exactly what was going to be said and how.



    the only way i can draw a conclusion is masi could do what he liked with that safety car in pursuit of both his aims. (safety and then creating a race)

    in this case he has contrived to create a 1 lap shoot out for the championship with one car being a total lame duck, hence my query as to the positions of the final 3 lapped cars and whether they were in fact interfering in a points decision.
     
    #632
    ched999uk likes this.
  13. moreinjuredthanowen

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    115,704
    Likes Received:
    27,602
    the funny thing is their Mercedes build quality went to the dogs many years ago and their amg cars are absolutely rubbish compared to the alternatives so I am not quite sure what advantage they really get from it.

    If they wanted to sell more cars there's a lot better ways to go about it.

    but then again for red bull this link to sport they have is tenous i suppose. F1 and football etc. do people really drink that syrupy heart attack medicine before playing sport? really?
     
    #633
  14. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,980
    Likes Received:
    2,145
    I think at least 1 of the lapped cars was between Carlos and Max at the restart. So in theory by not letting all lapped cars past Carlos and Ferrari could argue that they were disadvantaged in being able to challenge for the win!
     
    #634
    DHCanary likes this.
  15. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    13,495
    Likes Received:
    2,568
    The way the fans are reacting I'm not sure you'd want to be associated with F1. Talking to people in work who don't really watch F1 they don't understand why people watch for 2 hours if some guy just decides who wins at the end.
     
    #635
    Quagmireuk and ched999uk like this.
  16. moreinjuredthanowen

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    115,704
    Likes Received:
    27,602
    This has to go down as the biggest jinx posts of all time.
     
    #636
    taeleon and ched999uk like this.
  17. moreinjuredthanowen

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    115,704
    Likes Received:
    27,602
    there you go then. That for me is then double standards and in effect blocking sainz from attacking Verstappen.
     
    #637
  18. Short&Shapeless2

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2018
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    26
    MITO, I am a long time watcher and very rarely join in, but I just watched the last lap again to check, and at the restart I think both Danny Ric and Stroll (?) were between Max and Carlos.

    Watching the Max overtake you see can Carlos is only just getting past the Aston in Turn 5 too.

    So he was definitely compromised and was prevented from potentially attacking from the line - not sure it would have made a difference to getting Max, but he would surely have had a chance at getting Lewis if he just had those 2 in front of him when the trigger was pulled.

    So I guess the line in the FIA ruling about 'getting lapped cars out of the way of the Leader's' only means the first 2 and not the other cars on the lead lap.

    Seems Lando got it right with his "last lap for TV" thinking, and it smacks of double standards for me too.
     
    #638
  19. ched999uk

    ched999uk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    4,980
    Likes Received:
    2,145
    Nice to have you comment.
    I think you are right about Masi thinking the rule about getting lapped cars out of the way was only for Max and a last lap pass, just to create entertainment for TV.
    We are a friendly bunch in here, please join in more :)
     
    #639
    moreinjuredthanowen likes this.
  20. moreinjuredthanowen

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    115,704
    Likes Received:
    27,602
    if verstappen had sainz up his chuff would he have been able to squeeze hamilton or dive down turn 5? who knows. in the end verstappen needed Hamilton out of race or behind him so thats all that mattered but for me this adds to the case that masi only provided a "fair chance" to one car.

    100% sainz might have got hamilton too.
     
    #640
    ched999uk likes this.

Share This Page