1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

Off Topic The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Queens Park Rangers' started by Stroller, Jun 25, 2015.

?

Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

Poll closed Jun 24, 2016.
  1. Stay in

    56 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Get out

    61 vote(s)
    52.1%
  1. QPR Oslo

    QPR Oslo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    Messages:
    21,428
    Likes Received:
    6,470
    It was Trump's decision.
     
    #66001
  2. Sooperhoop

    Sooperhoop Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    34,790
    Likes Received:
    26,869
    Biden didn't have to follow it...
     
    #66002
  3. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    29,195
    Likes Received:
    26,549
    The best that can be said about the unfolding tragedy in Afghanistan is that at least there is a generation of Afghans, especially Afghan women, who have experienced a hint of freedom and equality. I doubt they will forget it and am pretty sure that Afghanistan will revert to its natural state - it’s not a country and never has been, it’s a geographical area of conflicting loyalties, beliefs, interests and desires. 11 different ethnolinguistic/tribal groups. Civil war, warlords, terror etc, welcome back. The Taliban are actually worse now than they were in the 90s - things which they were strongly against as anti Islamic then - kidnapping for ransom, suicide bombing, the drugs trade - are now established tactics for them.

    Of course, those Afghans who have tasted freedom, and it is to be hoped that they will again, will rightfully never trust the West again, good news for China. What started as a punishment raid against Al Qaeda morphed into a tragically mismanaged occupation under 4 presidents, Obama leading the way in mealy mouthed weakness, only Bush having a sense of what he was trying to do - smash bin Laden and his mates. The US and it’s allies face humiliating shame amongst certain commentators, even though leaving is a popular policy amongst the electorate there.

    Congratulations, seriously, to the mainly Tory MPs, especially those with a military background, who are being very clear and furiously cold eyed about the UKs role in all this. Tom Tugendhat withering about the total silence from our Foreign Secretary for the last two weeks. It is self evident that the U.K. does not have an independent foreign policy, to borrow from Jacob Rees Mogg we are a ‘vassal state’ to the US. Trump started negotiations on this retreat with the Taliban without telling the Afghan government let alone his allies, and Biden has seen it through. Our opinions are not important. But we’ll go along with anything if the possibility of a trade deal allowing us to import American food is endlessly dangled in front of us.

    The one thing we can do now to retain some dignity and respect is to welcome those fleeing the resumption of this barbaric, medieval militarised theocracy with open arms and apologies for losing their home for them.

    Rumoured that Johnson is recalling Parliament to discuss this. Will be of zero help to the Afghans of course, this is about Tory party management, trying to ward off attacks from within and perhaps some embarrassing resignations - Ben Wallace seems to be on another track from his boss. A few days ago I posted about Gerneral Sir Nick Carter, Chief of Defence Staff, interviewed on the radio claiming that the Afghan government were totally in control and making managed withdrawals in order to fight hard later. If this is the quality of British intelligence and understanding of the capability of our allies perhaps that is what Parliament should be discussing.

    Sorry for droning on about this.
     
    #66003
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  4. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    22,785
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    Lisa Nandy has been doing the rounds this morning with the usual rubbish.. “Government needs to answer for this” government this and that”. “What we would do if in power is...”.
    She was then followed by a war correspondent who basically looked at the camera in disbelief. His face told it's own story. If he could he would have called her a f22king idiot”. He dismantled her points.
    People have to remember this cr2p started 20 years ago for us and even longer for others.
     
    #66004
  5. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    22,267
    Likes Received:
    21,602
    Tugendhat talks a lot of sense. Should be in the government, but we know why he isn't.
     
    #66005
  6. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    35,612
    Likes Received:
    19,159
    Whilst I agree that the west have mis-managed the aftermath of the war in Afghanistan, there is apparently genuine amazement and bewilderment among senior British intelligence and military personnel at the ridiculously quick capitulation of the Afghan forces, after they had been so well trained and helped by our forces.
    Something doesn't quite add up.
     
    #66006
    sb_73 likes this.
  7. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    22,785
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    Mate you can't turn donkeys into horses, no matter how hard you try. There will probably be many brave afghan fighters but without air support they cannot do much. Thanks Biden!
    It has been a complete f22k up and there will be many reprisals. My only hope is that our boys on the ground won't get into trouble.
    What annoys me is that my Mrs school friend gave his life leaving two young daughters trying to build a better society in the country and after all the deaths/injuries the west has just abandoned them.
     
    #66007
  8. peter1954qpr

    peter1954qpr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    3,842
    Likes Received:
    2,404
  9. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,769
    Likes Received:
    10,267

    Trump started the negotiations off, but it was Biden that decided to cut and run, acting against his military advisors on the means and pace of withdrawal.

    Biden is utterly discredited. After Trump too, Americans must surely be asking themselves why they have such an appalling choice in presidents
     
    #66009
    ELLERS and rangercol like this.
  10. sb_73

    sb_73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    29,195
    Likes Received:
    26,549
    It might have something to do with morale and motivation. The Afghan government was notoriously corrupt, there is, as far as I understand it, very little sense of national identity as opposed to local/tribal loyalty - why fight for something you don’t believe in or care that much about. Tribal leaders/ warlords routinely switch sides in conflicts, to many the Taliban and the government might not be all that different. I wonder how many of the 300,000 Afghan soldiers enlisted for pay and meals?

    Having said that there have been no foreign combat forces on the ground in Afghanistan for 5 years, so the army has held strong for that time. I’m no military strategist but my understanding is that they were heavily dependent on air support from the US, which has been withdrawn, along with the support technicians who kept the Afghan planes and helicopters flying.

    The stupid thing is that there were hardly any US forces in Afghanistan anyway, only about 2,500 non combatant ‘advisors’, it’s just a gesture to withdraw them - they are actually more than doubling the number of bodies on the ground to manage the evacuation. There are 9k US forces in the U.K. I’m sure this is about PR and the $billions that the US has paid to support very little.
    Rory Stewart was good this morning too, someone who actually knows a lot about the region. Of course he’s walked away from politics. Wise man.
     
    #66010

  11. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    35,612
    Likes Received:
    19,159
    Undoubtedly the withdrawal of air support is catastrophic, but the speed of capitulation is still rather suspicious. As you say, there are so many different factions that a unified force is simply impossible.

    There have been and undoubtedly still are SF troops there from both here and the US, even though the main forces have been withdrawn. Ours will definitely be there supporting the Paras with evac.
     
    #66011
  12. Sooperhoop

    Sooperhoop Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    34,790
    Likes Received:
    26,869
    There was a guy on Sky News this morning who was explaining why the training of the Afghan forces was so poor. Many different dialects spoken so communication was a problem, many were apathetic often falling asleep and a lack of national identity meant there was little stomach for the fight. The place is a nightmare in the best of times so facing a barbaric opposition it's no surprise they've folded so quickly.

    Anyone who has lost a loved one or had life changing injuries must feel pretty sick with our useless politicians...
     
    #66012
    ELLERS likes this.
  13. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    22,785
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    He (Biden) is responsible as it was his time line and he set the withdrawal date. You can't blame Trump for this.
    It wasn't long ago many people were saying how good Biden was. Well he has been a bloody disaster in just about everything. Those supporters have now fallen silent.
    They compared Biden and Trump policies on the news the other night and other than his stupid comments, Trump beat him hands down.
    Biden is a f##king idiot.

    What Boris needs to do is get off his arse and make sure our boys at he airport have decent protection because the Taliban will be heading there... And they will break every promise they made.
     
    #66013
  14. rangercol

    rangercol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    35,612
    Likes Received:
    19,159
    Most of the things you describe aren't as a result of 'poor training'.
     
    #66014
  15. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,769
    Likes Received:
    10,267
    Interesting that the Biden supporting #MeToo brigade, so concerned about micro-aggressions against them by men, are staying silent about the impending rape, enslavement and murder of their Afghan sisters due in large part to Biden.
     
    #66015
    ELLERS likes this.
  16. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    22,785
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    I got a lot of stick on here around the election time. All the Biden fans have gone into hiding. I don't blame them because he is worse than Trump.
     
    #66016
  17. Bwood_Ranger

    Bwood_Ranger 2023 Funniest Poster

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    57,231
    Likes Received:
    45,153
    Is he though?
     
    #66017
  18. Goldhawk-Road

    Goldhawk-Road Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    10,769
    Likes Received:
    10,267
    He's made a major blunder on the international scene. Question is, does his audience at home mind? Will it count against him in the mid term elections? Jury's out.
     
    #66018
    ELLERS likes this.
  19. ELLERS

    ELLERS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    22,785
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    Just take a look at the polices. This cock up alone is worse than anything Trump ever did.
     
    #66019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  20. Stroller

    Stroller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    22,267
    Likes Received:
    21,602
    Worse than a Neo-Fascist?

    Depends on you point of view, I suppose.
     
    #66020

Share This Page