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Off Topic Israel

Discussion in 'The Premier League' started by Commachio, May 14, 2021.

  1. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    All about the political agenda and little to do with humanity in most cases.

    There are always reasons given to get involved in some conflicts and equal reasons given why not to in others.

    #colletaraldamage
     
    #301
  2. Commachio

    Commachio Rambo 2021

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    End of the day mate, none of us care enough. It's just news.

    We are surrounded by news. Some we take in, many we just brush off... Far worse going on in some African countries,
     
    #302
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  3. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    Yes there is and all over the world too mate. Same old story, poor people getting shafted. And made to fight a rich mans war.
     
    #303
  4. Commachio

    Commachio Rambo 2021

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    Here's the first story i pulled from todays news.


    A bomb ripped through a mosque in Kabul during Friday prayers, killing 12 worshippers including the imam, Afghan police have said.

    A further 15 people were wounded - including at least one child according to eye witnesses - in the explosion which happened in Shakar Dara district, in the north of the capital.
     
    #304
  5. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    I spent 8 years living in Israel/Palestine, 6 of which were spent working for an NGO which focuses on multi-cultural work, mainly building bridges between the major religions in the region. I have to say it was the most rewarding period of my life and one that really did open my eyes. Suffice it to say, I am deeply pained every time there is a flare up as it is literally like watching 6 years of my life's work unravelling. I try as hard as I can to make 'observations' rather than 'judgements', as having seen (and lived) the complexities of the region first hand, one thing I know for sure is that sweeping generalisations (many of which i have seen on this thread) are only useful to the person posting or saying them, nothing more.

    I'd like to share some observations, in no specific order. Please forgive the length of this post. Totally understand if you can't be arsed reading it.

    - The recent flare up has 3 or 4 main causes, which I will outline as briefly as possible:
    1) The eviction of Palestinian families from their homes in the Jerusalem neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
    This was done due to Israeli families bringing court-validated proof of ownership. Under Israeli law, a citizen can file a claim of ownership of land from which they were evicted by Jordan between 1948-1967. It is important to note that Palestinians cannot file similar claims. This is for two reasons: firstly, with the size of the Palestinian expat population appx the same size as the entire population of Israel, permitting such claims is seen as a threat to the integrity of the State as a Jewish one, and would lead to an unbearable strain on public infrastructure.
    While I don't agree with Israel's stance on this, I can understand why repealing the law would be totally impracticable. Perhaps a quota system allowing at least a percentage of Palestinians to return to their ancestral homes per year would be a good place to start and something I'd like to see.
    Secondly, Israel points to the fact that in the wake of its independence in 1948, appx 850,000 Jewish citizens of Muslim majority countries across the region were summarily evicted and to date have been denied the right to claim ownership of their ancestral homes in the likes of Iraq, Syria and Jordan. Again, I dislike the 'quid pro quo' approach here, but I do see both sides of the coin. Arguing one but not the other will appear - to the average Israeli - as hypocritical.

    2) Extra security measures around Jerusalem's Old City and Al-Sharif during Ramadan.
    This has been a trigger point for as long as I can remember. Anyone who has visited the Old City will know instantly that it is NOT built to accommodate large crowds. Ottoman-era infrastructure with Medieval street size makes for a picturesque but terrible combination.
    Israeli police regularly set up additional security barriers and crowd control measures during Ramadan when crowds of worshippers are many times higher than usual. These barriers cause delays and inconvenience which in turn causes frustration which in turn causes tempers to rise.
    Security measures this year have been tighter than usual mainly due to Covid and the simultaneous situation in Sheikh Jarrah.

    3) Palestinian and Israeli general elections.
    Same title, very different reasons which I will elaborate in turn.
    Mahmoud Abbas, nominal leader of the Palestinians and head of the Fatah party recently called for the first GE in over 15 years. Being as it is that he was only ever elected for a 4 year term (in Jan 2005), the news of an election was greeted with understandable enthusiasm by the Palestinian people.
    However, for numerous reasons Mr Abbas decided to postpone these elections. Many are of the opinion that he fears a Hamas victory in the West Bank. Hamas knows this. It is crucial that they present themselves as the true protectors of the Palestinian people. You may have noticed their flag flown quite prominently from the roof of Al-sharif and Al-aqsa. They are playing their role excellently.

    On the other side, Israel has just held its 4th inconclusive election in 2 years. Its electoral system - proportional representation - is highly democratic (far more so than the FPTP system we have in this country), guaranteeing representation to even the smallest political parties. However, the by product of this voting system is that coalition governments are almost inevitable. And unlike coalitions in this country which tend to be 2 parties and no more, Israel's coalitions can be built from as many as 7 or 8 different parties. This then grants disproportionate influence to politicians who often only represent a tiny minority of Israelis, as they become kingmakers.
    It is also a reason why Israel has been drifting to the political right over the past 15 years. At the center of this is Netanyahu. Loved by half of Israel, despised by the other half. But even his fiercest critics acknowledge that when it comes to security and defence, he is peerless. The Iran threat looming over the entire region has fuelled his power base. And as a centre-right politician, Netanyahu will naturally gravitate to right-wing parties to form a coalition. And those parties will often refuse to enter government without certain provisions. Common examples of these tend to be related to expansion of settlements, a strong stance against Iran and its proxies in the region (i.e. Hamas and Hezbollah), and a guarantee of a more religious character of the state. The current conflict certainly suits Netanyahu, as he can turn around and say 'look, you need me'. It is no coincidence that Naftali Bennet - leader of the Yamina party and therefore holder of a potential game-changing 7 seats in the Knesset, came out 2 days ago in a dramatic u-turn and said he would re-consider sitting in a coalition government with Netanyahu despite running on a ballot that promised he would do no such thing.

    - Some observations on the Palestinian position:
    1) It is important to understand that the Palestinian population lives in two distinct areas, under two distinct governments, yet they very much share the same social 'soul' and historical narrative. Whereas Fatah officially recognises Israel's right to exist, the Hamas charter and constitution calls for Israel's total destruction. Therefore, when we talk about a "two-state solution", it is crucial to understand that many of Israel's right-wing parties, plus Hamas, don't actually want one and it is therefore naive of us in the West to sit here speaking about it as if it is gospel. It isn't.

    2) The Hamas/Fatah civil war (2004-6) made what was already the single biggest obstacle in the path to a two-state solution even more impossible. The problem is, creating a contiguous link between Gaza and the West Bank would mean literally slicing Israel in half. And by 'Israel' here, I mean internationally undisputed Israel as mandated by the UN in 1948. Road, tunnel, airport, it is irrelevant - the fact that any such link would inevitably and unavoidably be controlled (at least on one side) by a party that is committed to Israel's destruction means that the latter cannot and will not agree to it.

    3) Hamas and Fatah only hate Israel more than they hate each other. There is really no need to elaborate on this.

    4) My own love for the Palestinian people and their cause stops firmly with Hamas, a movement which frankly terrifies me. It is true that the Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated regions on the globe, but no more so than Manhattan. What Hamas does is the equivalent of placing rocket launchers and military camps in the middle of Wall Street rather than Central Park. It also pains me to the bottom of my heart to see that while it is capable of digging tunnels and military bunkers to depths of more than 30 meters, it apparently can't be bothered to dig bomb shelters for its civilian population to protect them from Israeli air strikes.

    - Some observations on the Israeli position:

    1) Many hundreds of thousands if not millions of Israeli citizens will evoke ancient history when speaking about the conflict, tracing the Jewish story in the land back to biblical times. In my experience, calling these people 'mad' or 'bigoted' isn't particularly useful. It is far more constructive to sit down and try to understand their position, as they are unlikely to budge from it due to international pressure.

    2) The chemistry of Israel's population has shifted significantly in the past two decades toward the right wing. There are more than a dozen excellent reasons why this has happened. I will list those that have been mentioned to me most often by my contacts there:
    - The Iranian threat.
    - The perception that Israel is now a partisan issue in the US (see below)
    - The result of no longer seeing or trusting the 'peace process' after so many failed attempts.
    - A series of incompetent leaders on the Israeli left of the political spectrum. (To illustrate: in 1992 the Labour party held 44 seats and sat in government. In 2020 they held just 3 seats.)

    3) Despite what you might read or see online, the vast majority of Israelis are peaceful, lovely people (if a bit argumentative and arrogant). As mentioned above, the Israeli population is very much divided, and Netanyahu the figurehead is what divides them. Whilst his power base is significant and drifting ever-more to the right, it is widely believed that a majority of Israelis don't want him as Prime Minister and would rally around a competent centre-left leader if such a leader emerged. Israelis agree that Netanyahu can deliver security, but he can't (or won't) deliver peace. And there is a world of difference between the two modes of existence. The issue is, Israel's voting system has undermined itself by being too democratic, making it extremely difficult to actually oust him and his generation of politician from the Knesset. His personal support is dwindling, but it will take time - plus a very strong opponent - for a fresh voice with fresh ideas to come to the podium. I believe Israel desperately needs this as it has ignored the peace process for far too long simply for lack of willingness and fresh ideas - a reality that suits Netanyahu and his coalition partners, but not swathes of the Israeli populace.

    - Some observations on the International position:
    1) The latest conflict didn't emerge suddenly, in a vacuum. What we are seeing is the end product of almost 15 years of pathological failure on the part of the international community. UN sanctions and summons to the Hague clearly aren't the answer. Any and all progress ever made in bringing peace to the region has needed 3rd-part brokers who are able to weigh up equally the needs and sensitivities of both sides. 8 years of Obama and Kerry gave the region indifferent and blundering chaos. 4 years of Trump and Tillerson/Pompeo gave the region clear Israel bias. Meanwhile across the pond, the EU has been far too preoccupied with Brexit to be able to focus on the region in any meaningful way. Like parents leaving toddlers in a room unsupervised, the real vacuum here is the vacuum of diplomatic input, and so the peace process has stagnated badly in that time frame, with Abbas and Netanyahu not on direct speaking terms since 2014. Which is nuts.

    2) Another side-effect of the Obama-Trump era was how the Israel/Palestinian question became a deeply partisan issue. Similar has happened in this country with a Labour/Conservative split, but nowhere near the extent to which it now exists in the USA. Briefly, a voter will be pro-Palestinian because they vote democrat, and they will be pro-Israel because they vote republican, despite having next to zero understanding of the conflict. Similar to how Rangers fans will wave Israel flags because they're not Celtic, and vice-versa. It should be obvious to the point of self-explanatory that making an issue partisan means it becomes almost impossible to resolve, as supposedly impartial 3rd-party mediators will inevitably be accused of bias and not trusted by the other side (which is exactly what happened under Trump).

    3) The Iran situation is closely linked to the current cycle in ways it previously wasn't. Following the Abraham Accords (the peace process between Israel and various Sunni states in the region), the Palestinians (who were almost completely ignored during the Accords) pretty much ran to Iran's embrace. Iran already has numerous proxy groups operating in the region (including Hizbollah) and whereas Hamas historically has been propped up by Qatar and other Sunni states or groups (e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood), this has shifted dramatically over the past decade so that today, Hamas' primary backer is Iran. In a case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', this explains the relative silence of Sunni countries in the wake of the latest conflict. They recognise that to side with Hamas against Israel is to support Iran's regional ambitions. Until as recently as 2016, Fatah saw Iran as an avowed enemy and disruptor who would always put their own designs ahead of those of the Palestinians. But in an ironic twist, the fact that Iran pushed Sunni states into Israel's embrace may well lead to Fatah welcoming Iran's.
     
    #305
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  6. Commachio

    Commachio Rambo 2021

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    I'm not reading all that ****, far to long winded for the Prem board...

    But i did read your first paragraph, and respect<applause>
     
    #306
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  7. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    I think that quote sums up the intransigency of it all.
     
    #307
  8. Commachio

    Commachio Rambo 2021

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    Explain please, so what do they want?

    @C. Kane
     
    #308
  9. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    I read all this and I appreciate the post.

    I admit to knowing **** all about this really and your post has given me at least some background on what's going on over there so cheers.
     
    #309
  10. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    Simple. Hamas wants the entire region 'from the river to the sea' cleansed of Israelis (Jewish ones).

    Israel's right-wing parties want the entire region cleansed of Palestinians.

    Whilst I believe either side would go about said 'cleansing' differently, the bottom line is both sides want the same outcome: a one-state solution that solves the problem by getting rid of it outright.

    Netanyahu and his Likud party are officially committed to a two-state endgame. Trouble is many of his traditional coalition partners (Lieberman, Bennett and the various ultra-orthodox parties) couldn't really care less if the Palestinians get a state or not.

    Abbas and his Fatah party are officially committed to a two-state solution. Trouble is many other groups that hold sway over huge portions of the Palestinians (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah) couldn't really care less if the Israelis get a state or not.

    Hence intransigent.
     
    #310
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  11. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    I think the length of his post is a description of the various unmet needs.
     
    #311
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  12. Commachio

    Commachio Rambo 2021

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    So basically it's all ****ed any which way?
     
    #312
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  13. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to hope not. I saw enough in my time there to suggest that all hope is not lost and that a solution can be found. I have an idea of the steps I think need to be taken for that to happen, but as said: I try to stick to 'observations' rather than 'judgements'...especially on a football forum <laugh>

    I save the judgements for my comments on Spurs <laugh>
     
    #313
  14. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    You have a direct experience of it all though.

    So I would be interested to hear what your solution would be ?
     
    #314
  15. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    Yeah same ere.

    Im going bed now but I'll be looking in the morni.....when I get up
     
    #315
  16. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    You mean the afternoon ?
     
    #316
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  17. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    Could very well be mate, I like to surprise you all sometimes and post before 1pm
     
    #317
  18. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    Bigger story here is how @Spurlock has swerved this thread tonight after the PNP beef.

    convenient
     
    #318
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  19. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    This is obviously some jedi trick he's pulling again. You'll see
     
    #319
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  20. PINKIE

    PINKIE Wurzel Gummidge

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    Yeah that's what he will say.
     
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