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Postecoglou & Lange (& Paratici) Watch

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by Dier Hard, Apr 19, 2021.

?

Next gaffer, who's your preference?

  1. Arne Slot

  2. Ruben Amorim

  3. Luis Enrique

  4. Ange Postocoglou

  5. Brendan Rodgers

  6. Graham Potter

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. The Huddlefro

    The Huddlefro Well-Known Member

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    I’m not trying to necessarily say that Mason is a great manager, the sample size just isn’t good enough. But I definitely enjoy watching us more under his management so far and it’s not just the feel good factor.

    We’re playing higher up the pitch and with a better tempo and more intent. Yeah he got it wrong against Leeds (ironically Jose is the perfect manager to beat their press) but barring the Southampton and United away games which were kind of tactical anomalies anyway, I’m struggling to think of a game this season under Jose I enjoyed purely for the football. Sure beating Chelsea in the LC and the derby win in December were fun results but I’m enjoying the football more under Mason. Like I said, small sample size though.
     
    #681
  2. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    To a football club as a business, winning does matter.
    A sizeable proportion of supporters, no matter how tribal their loyalty,
    will not attend games if they are repeatedly being served up rubbish on-pitch.

    Which affects the bottom line, silverware or not.

    And consequently begs the following question in the spectrum of on-pitch possibilities ...

    Which of the following would you take over a decade :

    1. winning one domestic trophy per season, for a final you cannot attend, if the vast
    majority of play all season and the final was like the worst dirge of the 1990s teams

    2. each season being like 2009-10 / 2010-11/ 2015-16 / 2016-17 / 2018-19, but no
    trophies won
     
    #682
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  3. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    Where did I say that results don't matter? You have just bought into American bullshit. We managed very well without this trophy attitude and considering we invented most of these games the last 50 years of increasing American influence is no more than an anoyance. Except of course when things like ESL rears it's head because that is the logical outcome of the position you have adopted. It is clearly the aim to win every game you play however confusing that with trophy hauls is to miss the point as I said in the first place.
     
    #683
  4. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    No I think you miss the point...I enjoyed scoring the winning goal in the FA Cup final whilst playing in the playground. Just like the kind of stuff you hear players talking about on the eve of major cup finals they are soon to be participating in.

    Of course when I played football as a kid and through my adult life it’s because I enjoyed playing it. Wether I play in the local park or I play professional..I play the game to score the goal to win the game. I dont just participate because I enjoy it. I hated losing as a kid and I hate losing now. Nothing to do with rich people as every football game that kicks off is about two teams and one out scoring the other, that is the essence of the game. Wether you or millions others decide to watch it for other side reasons is up to them but every game that kicks off is between two teams trying to out score each other, that is the game.

    Winning a football game is part of enjoying it. That’s why I was hearing things on this very board from a few posters who were saying things along the lines of ‘crap football is bearable whilst you’re winning’, that suggests to me so long as the W is coming we will grin and bare it(the Jose reign). That’s why when football comes to the business end, fans, pundits and players alike start to come out with terms such as ‘it’s not the performance, it’s the points that count’. Of course trying to win is the whole point of a game of football. I understand that fans soon realise their clubs don’t have a cats in hell chance of winning much so they start to find other reasons to enjoy their team but even then they want to win.

    Many Spurs fans have forgotten what glory tastes like so over the years your interest in the game has probably morphed into something you can cope with week in week out 2/3 times a week. You're making out as though I don’t enjoy the game but you lap up every Loss like it’s a victory so long as you ‘had a good day’.

    Maybe when it comes to competition some of us enjoy taking part whilst others enjoy trying to Win...that’s my nature, that’s why sport interests me. some of us are Harry Kane’s whilst others are Harry Winks. Just because I don’t forget that a game of football is about winning more than it is about all the side distractions does not mean I don’t enjoy it. I can’t enjoy competition played with a ‘just enjoy it, winning doesnt matter’ mentality.

    If you try your hardest to remove the word ‘win’ from your purpose of watching Sport then you might enjoy it like the day tripper, the kid with the stretchy extension on his I phone thingy so he can capture as much of his day out as possible. You could very well be the problem aswell since we are having a hell of a time shifting from being bottlers and pretenders to winners and contenders.

    Do you think players with a winners mentality for example Roy Keane, Gerrard to name but a few, did not ‘enjoy’ the game? Of course they did, more than those that were just happy to take part so long as they are ‘living the dream’.

    You can enjoy the game for whatever reason you want but I’m not having anyone tell me ‘winning’ isn’t important and it gets on my tits because that is the exact mentality that holds this club back and Levy can sniff a mile off. Give them a new shiny stadium, they will be happy they don’t care about winning things. Give them a ****ing pub in the stadium so they can share their stories with each other, they don’t care about winning things.

    I think some of the mediocre expectations of the fans is a big problem for this club.
     
    #684
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  5. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    You've got years of match day memories mate...your memories are lacking the silverware. No one goes to a game depressed and suicidal. You go in hope of having a great day but please nobody tell me that cheering, screaming, losing your **** chasing that ‘Win’ is not part of that day.
     
    #685
  6. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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  7. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    The whole point of the new stadium is to raise money to buy better players and make us more likely to win things.

    The issue for me is saying Levy is satisfied with losing. He really isn't. His ambition for the club is way beyond what most fans have.
     
    #687
  8. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    It's like the latest moan of the Lunatic Fringe: moaning (rightly) about ticket prices one minute, and the next saying we need to sign four of five £40m+ players in one window

    One thing that does have to be said is the flat fee of £60 for the Villa game is absolutely something we'll catch a cold on, because at the moment restaurants and airlines are operating with two approaches
    1.) Lower prices to get people through the door and get some cash rolling in
    2.) Keep prices where they are in the belief that once you get some cash coming in at the same rate you can (potentially...) lower prices later

    Honestly, tickets for the Villa game should be capped at £40 and certainly not £40 across the board because getting fans into the ground is important - unless they're some bellend dusting off their banners from when we were at Wembley, they can be charged £80 so they can moan in their preferred echo chamber of likeminded people who can't seem to work out that if the club doesn't have disposable income of at least £160m they won't be signing four or five £40m+ players
     
    #688
  9. The Changing Man

    The Changing Man Well-Known Member

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    I spent over 20 years as a season ticket holder at Gillingham, in that time they were promoted 4 times and relegated 4 times. And I know which seasons were better, I also went to 3 play off finals and winning 2 and losing 1. Those games are either the most amazing high or the most depressing low.

    But following a team in the lower leagues you don't expect success, but you hope to see your team win more often than they lose. I go to Gillingham because I love live football and over the years it was easier and cheaper to go locally and I retain a close affinity to the club and I have memories of a last minute winners in a league match v Keegans Fulham at Preistfield that was scored right in front of us, that is right up there with seeing Harry score the winner in the NLD at Wembley because who doesn't love a last minute winner.

    As the City love in continues in the media (and we had to suffer Dickov on SSN last night a player anyone with an affinity the Gills despises), I often wonder if Halsey had not added on so much time at Wembley in 1999 when Dickov scored the equaliser after the allotted time had passed (the added time was apparently for the time the Gills had wasted celebrating their 2nd goal), would they be where they are now - we will never know but I do know that Mark Halsey was a guest of honour when they moved in to the Etihad make off that what you will!
     
    #689
  10. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    CK Essay incoming...

    There is an interesting paradox at play in this whole discussion that no one has yet acknowledged and that is the reality that the higher a club's expectations rise, the fewer and further between those 'great memories' will be. This is simply because unexpected victories become expected, then run of the mill, then boring.

    I was speaking to a former colleague of mine who grew up in Munich and now lives here. He's a Bayern fan and felt barely a flicker of joy at watching his team stroll to a 9th title on the trot. His only truly memorable games this season game in the CL and even that ended quicker than expected in disappointment.

    It's why for all the talk of how this title is Pep's "best ever", most City fans acknowledge that given the season liverpool have had, the title is par for course and the CL is where the real measure of things is.

    I want success for this club but I also appreciate that some of my fondest memories of supporting Spurs didn't lead to actual trophies and probably stem from the very fact that success has been relatively sparse since the 80's. Beating Woolwich and finishing above them for the first time in 22 years...winning at OT for the first time...beating Real at Wembley...even the fight back against Inter is up in my top 10-20 matches and we bloody lost!

    The more I think of it, the more I understand where @Spurf is coming from. Ultimately if we are playing good football and win more matches than we lose, and in those we lose we at least put in the effort and walk away with pride intact, I'd be pretty satisfied. Especially as the glaring reality is that sustained success can only be reached either by playing in a crap league or via an open cheque book...I'm not sure if that's the sort of success that would interest me or remain memorable beyond the first couple of trophies.

    Ajax are so bored of "success" they've actually melted down the trophy shield to make little mementos for their fans! I.e. success has become so un-memorable, the club has to think up ways to make it so!

    And for all the bemoaning of Celtic's terrible season i bet there are countless celtic fans who are delighted that Rangers have finally found their mojo again. Suddenly the Old Firm derbies are meaningful events again instead of stale, empty processions.

    There is a very fine line between success and sustained success in the modern game but...I dunno...would I prefer to watch Spurs winning the CL but playing and spending like Di Matteo's Chelsea to do it, or would I prefer to watch Spurs lose in the CL final if the run up included the games against Barca, Dortmund, City and Ajax?

    The answer to that really isn't as easy as I thought it would be. I am too old to care much for bragging rights, so the only objective value of buying the CL while playing crap football is the simple utility of it raising the club's profile which enables us to attract better players which enables us to play better and more entertaining football.

    But I appreciate and respect that for many fans that extrapolation may well read: buy the CL playing crap football to raise the club's profile to crush all opposition to win more trophies irrespective of the style of play.
     
    #690
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  11. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    On the flip side, remember how MOTD spent years making out that Coventry fans enjoyed their annual Great Escape as it brought fans together in supporting the team? Apparently they never asked Coventry fans their opinion, because they hated the annual relegation scraps not least because it's fair to say that, even though they dropped out of the top flight twenty years ago, their fans have still seen more Premier League defeats than fans of numerous other clubs

    Sometimes a last day escape does bring teams together, for example the momentum that Leicester built off staying up coupled with the canny purchase of Kante plus Mahrez blowing up went a long way to them getting away with elbowing opponents in their penalty area six or seven times a game
     
    #691
  12. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    People remember the Golden Age of Heavyweight Boxing, not because of one man's dominance, but because of the high quality of opposition.
    The Premier League is watched over La Liga, the Bundesliga, Ligue 1 and Seria A because it's not normally a parade and different teams win it.
    Competition is key to progress and interest. One team pissing it is dull.
     
    #692
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  13. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    You must be smoking some good stuff CK if you’re contemplating a day where you might get to that ‘bored of winning trophies’ stage at Spurs <laugh>

    I’ll worry about that to the extent where it influences why I watch the game if it ever got to that stage but not today, not where we are here and now and not for the foreseeable.

    Plus I don’t understand why people seem to be thinking someone who wants his club to win trophies must not be enjoying watching his team when they have their moments during the season.
     
    #693
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  14. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Yeah for sure I think everyone that goes to games has that hope or expectation to win a game, though that's probably the same for anyone watching on TV or listening to the radio too tbh. I'm as pissed as anyone when it comes to looking at our trophy cabinet from the last 20 years, it genuinely is embarrassing, especially knowing full well that in the periods of roughly 2010-2012 and 2015-2018 we had two teams who were more than capable in terms of talent to win something, but I just refute the claims that we won't remember anything from years gone by if we never won a trophy in that year. We've seen some champagne footy in spells, just never had the cup to drink it from, lol.
     
    #694
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  15. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    Looking back it is actually mental that we never won anything with:

    Friedel
    Corluka, Woodgate, King, Ekotto
    Parker, Modric
    Lennon, van der Vaart, Bale
    Adebayor

    or

    Hugo
    Walker, Toby, Jan, Rose
    Wanyama, Dembele
    Son, Eriksen, Dele
    Kane

    Now we're left with a team consisting of:

    Hugo


    ........................Son
    Kane

    <laugh>
     
    #695
  16. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is thinking that.
    My main issue is with the ENIC have not won enough trophies argument. Trophies are brilliant but they are not a good performance measure. League points are a far better measure because better teams get more league points but don't always win trophies whereas worse teams get fewer league points but sometimes do win trophies.
     
    #696
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  17. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    I understand that a 38 game season is an accurate measure of how ‘good’ a team is however football certainly measures how ‘good’ a team and how successful a club is by the number of trophies it wins.
     
    #697
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  18. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    Spurs have more league points than Leicester the last decade but who’s had the better decade?

    Probably had more points than Arsenal and maybe even Liverpool too but again who’s had the better decade?
     
    #698
  19. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    The better team won fewer trophies possibly. But people want ENIC to leave because of the lack of trophies despite the good league finishes. What would a better owner do to get more trophies other than make the team better (which will give more league points).
     
    #699
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  20. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    You should be a politician with that answer :emoticon-0105-wink:
     
    #700
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